I remembered a funny Valentine’s Day story this morning.
One year, a couple days before Valentine’s Day, my friend, Tom, found himself wandering the aisles at Wal-Mart, trying to find the perfect box of candy for his wife when he experienced an epiphany of sorts. He suddenly realized that, rather than buying that large sampler box of chocolates on the 12th, if he waited until February 15th, he could get the large and perfect box of candy for 90% off. I think you already know how this story ended. Not well. His foolish choice, no matter how much it seemed like a good idea at the time, required quite a bit of effort and crow-eating to be undone.
I could not help thinking of the Kevin Swanson debacle of the past week as we recalled my friend’s dilemma. Kevin has made an obvious mistake, actually much more than a mistake, and he needs to make it right. We are still waiting.
Since I blogged about this, along with dozens of others, I have read both in my comments here as well as on my FB page and on several other places around the web, a reoccurring theme that includes these ideas:
Kevin might have spoken prematurely.
Kevin spoke off the top of his head and didn’t mean to say what he said.
Kevin is a pastor and that means we must give him a pass.
We are not to judge
We are not to name names.
“etc, etc, etc,” as the King of Siam might say.
This is what I think:
Kevin writes, records, and publishes a regular podcast. He has the capability, not to mention responsibility, to edit what he or his guests have said to be certain he is clear in what they all say. At the beginning of every podcast interview I do, I explain to my guests what to expect and how to correct something they have said that they would like to reword. I tell them that we are more than willing to edit at their request because we want them to be satisfied with how they come across. Since Kevin is a professional speaker, that is, one who receives money to talk, he knows how important this is. As in the foolish comments Voddie Baucham made about older men “needing the attention of younger women,” there is no room to say “he spoke prematurely” or “off the top of his head;” when something is produced and edited and published for public consumption; the only correct response is to acknowledge it was meant to be said.
It is also not the fault of the listeners; we did not misunderstand. Why do so many people who should know better try to pull this excuse from their hats? When Passionate Housewives Desperate for God was first published, its authors, Jennie Chancey and Stacy McDonald, asked if I would give them podcast time on my blog to correct “my misunderstandings” of what they had written since many people took away from their books things that they claimed they did not mean to say. I had “mischaracterized them” I was told. Apparently enough people responded similarly since a while back they announced that they are rewriting their book to “clarify” those misunderstandings.
I personally think that if you are “misunderstood” so many times, you should find another profession other than “communicator.”
Kevin has a history of making these outrageous statements and I have yet to see him apologize, explain with integrity, or recant them. In fact, someone recently pointed out to me that he seems to enjoy being the “Howard Stern” of homeschooling radio! To support his idea that it is a sin for girls to attend college, he claimed that girls who go to college “will sell their flesh cheap in the market place” and “will have two abortions by the time they are 30.” Regarding same sex unions, he has recently said “What’s happening is they want homosexuals to be able to be involved in adoption and foster care as much anybody else. So picture a nice little home-school family, just trying to do the right thing. An anonymous tip comes in, social services swoops in, they grab the kids in the year 2022, and the kids get remanded into a home with homosexuals, and these particular homosexuals happen to be tied into NAMBLA and other things.” And, of course, he has waxed eloquent about the evils of Sunday school and non family integrated churches, which he believes are not “biblical.” (See my podcast series on the Family Integrated Church movement.) He was also part of the homeschooling “leadership” that organized and shaped the 2009 Homeschool Leadership Summit in Indianapolis where part of the declared agenda is to see that all public schools are closed, DCFS is abolished, all daughters remain at home until given in marriage, and all homeschooling families are members of Family Integrated churches. This latest statement about the birth control pill is only one in a series of irresponsible declarations that could have been edited and can still be repented of…..if he truly wanted to do so, if they weren’t actually what he meant to say. And the fact that he is a pastor in good standing in the OPC makes it even more imperative that he do so!
A couple days ago, Kevin revisited the birth control pill topic on his blog by sharing some information from Randy Alcorn on what the birth control pill’s actual function is in order to prevent the birth of a live baby. Alcorn’s research is accurate in that birth control pills do serve only as a means to prevent conception by suppressing ovulation but they also are potential abortificients in that they do cause the lining of the uterus to thin and change to prevent implantation. A few years ago I researched all the websites of manufacturers of birth control pills and every single one listed this aspect of the pill. This is also the position in a well respected textbook for ob-gyn doctors. I also asked my own gynecologist if this was true and he admitted that it is. There is the potential for break through ovulation and thus a child could be aborted in the process. As one doctor put it, it is like “playing Russian roulette.” To not admit this is just as wrong as the crazy talk Kevin has done. His follow-up statements are not being taken seriously because he still has not given any “original source” information nor has he owned up to the fact that he has not.
Coming back to my thoughts on Valentine’s Day: integrity, honesty, transparency, sensitivity…these are all things I would expect from a Valentine, from someone who loves me. Can I not expect the same from a fellow believer who is commanded to love one another? I think so.
38 Responses to thoughts on Valentine’s Day and Kevin Swanson
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Join me on an adventure as we study through Chuck Swindoll’s book The Grace Awakening. Each Monday I will post some thoughts from a portion of the book and we will discuss them in the comment section, making special application for moms. (Dads and singles are welcome to join us, too!) You can purchase a copy of the book (there are lots of used copies available via Amazon) or it is also available on audio. I don’t want you to feel like you have to read along to join in the discussion; I want this to be as stress free as possible. But I know you will enjoy the book if you read it……understanding and embracing grace is life changing and many have found this book to be a great encouragement after coming through paradigm based ministries, including some homeschooling groups. Please invite your friends, I know you will be blessed!!! We will be starting on July 23rd!
forgot to link in this resource:
Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology and Infertility (Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology and Infertility (Speroff)
Well said. I love this line: I personally think that if you are “misunderstood” so many times, you should find another profession other than “communicator.”
How true.
Thanks for all that you do!
Amanda
I’m glad you posted this. The sloppiness has bothered me too.
Part of my many duties when I worked in the federal government was writing speeches. And every speech I ever wrote went through probably a dozen or more people to check the facts and make sure that what was said was consistent and correct. The view was that if you are making a statement as a representative of the U.S. Government, it has to be 100% correct. When the person I wrote the speech for went to give it, I was often one of the people who came along in case there were technical questions beyond the capability of the one speaking. Sometims I would pass them a note to help with their answer, and sometimes I would answer. And we were briefed over and over about the importance of just saying what had to be said and no more. Extra information and things we weren’t sure about were not to be discussed from the platform.
So I often think about that experience when I hear Christian speakers. Aren’t we supposed to be accurately representing our Lord when we speak? Isn’t it a solemn duty to be in that role? So many treat it lightly, and this is the sort of thing that happens. And it reflects us all.
I just loved his “non-response” response to his absurd statement that he made. As a Christian homeschooler, I find him to be an embarrassment to homeschooling.
The right thing for him to do would be to own up to his “misspeaking” or at least provide his proof for his argument. However, I don’t believe he will do that. He will continue to look foolish to the majority while the minority will stand behind him.
I truly think all of his words are a heart matter. Luke 6:45 – “The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart the mouth speaks.” I’ll make this clear – I don’t think Swanson is “evil,” however, I do think that we are getting a glimpse of the “overflow of his heart.”
It is interesting to me that the driving force behind much of the sheltering, whether it be keeping daughters out of college, as you mentioned above, or severely limiting the friends and activities of minors, is the fear of an unwed pregnancy. Leaving aside the fact that this often (not always) is directed at daughters only, as if their virginity is somehow more magical, it seems to me to be insulting to the young people themselves.
Do parents really believe that their children are so weak and spineless as to be incapable of making healthy decisions while in college?
Many, most indeed, of my female friends and relatives somehow managed to navigate higher education without a string of pregnancies and abortions. A few chose not to go to college, and in any population you will have a few exceptions, but there doesn’t seem to be a pattern of “go to college, get knocked up; stay home, stay pure.” When I think of my cousins, sister, wife, friends, I note that they generally seem capable of making plans for their future and staying true to them. In other words, they act like adults. As did I, for that matter.
Parents go through all that work of laying a good foundation, but then are terrified to relinquish the control and let the work they did bear its fruit.
“Coming back to my thoughts on Valentine’s Day: integrity, honesty, transparency, sensitivity…these are all things I would expect from a Valentine, from someone who loves me. Can I not expect the same from a fellow believer who is commanded to love one another? I think so.”
Keep on that straight and true path, Karen. We have all been given different gifts and maybe some aren’t finding them as readily as others. Sadly, (and oddly) wise communication or teaching doesn’t seem to be a skill many pastors have. (I surely appreciate the humble ones where I’ve learned much.) It’s also the community’s responsibility to be responsive and remember these folks are not elevated and non-accountable figures.
Happy Valentine’s Day!
Thanks for the link about birth control pills–I did the same research and came to the same conclusion about them (and thus I use NFP).
And thanks for your wise thoughts about the responsibility of teachers to be clear. After all, the Lord has some harsh words for people who teach wrong things, and lay burdens on the laity (Matt. 23).
Hmmm. I’ve wanted to message you for sometime and I believe this Kevin Swanson stuff gives me the oppurtunity. Please excuse me if I’m scattered, because I’m trying to put all my thoughts together.
First of all, I’ve followed you for almost a year now, maybe more. I even corresponded with you on email a bit. I would like to thank you for being a sounding board on some of these spiritual issues that you address. You often give me food for thought different from that which I’m often exposed to. We belong to a family integrated church and have for three years. (Kevin Swanson was a guest speaker at our Spring Conference our first year and we really enjoyed hearing him speak.) Over the years though, we have had to learn to go slow into what we are being taught, not from our own church…but like you say, from others within “the movement.” (I love Voddie Baucham by the way and have always wanted to ask you what your beef with him is?) Either way…
When I have read your posts in the past I have often believed them to be on more of the negative side and not very balanced. Why? Well, like I said, I’m part of a very reformed, very conservative, very FI…church. Many times you lump all of the FIC movement together and they are shed in a very negative light. Let us take my church for example, Reformed PCA. Mostly/majority homeschool families, maybe a couple of private school, no public. Several of our girls if not most go to college. Some of the mothers work in addition to homeschooling their children. There are large families and small families. What I have found since discovering your blog is this…there are only maybe two or three families within our church that follow the things you warn about with the FIC. (I’ve really been paying attention…I was worried about being cultish!) It seems everyone and every family is vastly different, yet united through our common core beliefs. So, do you think it would be necessary for you to make your issues with FICs more balanced? Do you think maybe that you have at times went to the other extreme?
Back to Kevin Swanson. I agree with everything you have said. He says things sometimes that are outrageous. My husband listens to him a few times a week while working. When I’ve brought up these issues with my husband here is what he told me. “You can’t write him off as a bad person or an unbeliever just because he’s said this stuff. He’s a shock jock, he says things to get attention. He still has good points and is, we can assume, still a believer.”
When I read what he said, I was appalled…there is so much misinformation about BC pills out there, I really hope that as believers we can be responsible with what we say so those who are unaware will listen. I believe he should repent or substantiate his claims. BUT…while we, or someone, can and should confront him with this we should make sure we are doing it with a spirit of love. Sometimes it just seems you have such a beef with these guys you will go to all lengths to destroy their names. Do you not consider them brothers in Christ? and if not, why not?
I must go…I have a toddler calling to be released from naptime.
I hope that makes sense and wasn’t too scattered.
And just curious, did you give Jenny and Stacey an oppurtunity to speak on your podcast? I never knew they had wanted to make some things clear on the book???
This won’t contribute to the conversation at all, but I would far rather have the big box of chocolates on the 15th than the little one on the 14th. Makes perfect sense to me
Michelle-
With all due respect, just wanting to respond to this comment you made regarding Thatmom…
“Sometimes it just seems you have such a beef with these guys you will go to all lengths to destroy their names. Do you not consider them brothers in Christ? and if not, why not?”
There are many in the body of Christ that have been harmed by these theological teachings. I do not believe it is the intention here to destroy anyone’s “name” , these people are pastors, authors, scholars – they will build their own names or not based on their integrity. This is not gossip, that is what destroys someone’s name, this website in my opinion is an opportunity to critique the scholars, the teachings that are popular in the homeschool world, the theology behind it. It is not personal. So often we as homeschool moms accept all the teaching and ideas that comes along and we don’t stand back and critically ask the hard questions, that is what is happening here, folks are asking the hard questions and not just accepting an idea because it was preached and accepted by the neighboring homeschool family.
Your husband’s comment “You can’t write him off as a bad person or an unbeliever just because he’s said this stuff. He’s a shock jock, he says things to get attention. He still has good points and is, we can assume, still a believer.” I don’t think the analysis here is about weather Kevin Swanson is a bad person or even a believer, and maybe his style is more of an entertainer than a professor but he still has basic standards that he has to be accountable to just like anyone else in the public square. The issues that are raised with this pastor or anyone else is about integrity and truth, and furthermore it’s about a theological world view that doesn’t have the main things of the gospel where they should be. We are to be thinkers, there has been many people who have been or are being lead into extra biblical ideas from these leaders that will burden them and distract them from their relationship with Jesus and will lead them to sin. If the FIC operated under the idea that this way of doing church was a preference, than that is one thing but as a whole they do not, they advocate that this way of doing church is superior to other methods.
For Thatmom to dedicate so much time and effort toward this effort of educating the body of the teaching that is circulating in the homeschool community so that we might be more aware, is nothing but a spirit of love and service, love for fellow christians who have been deceived to think that subtly the work of christ was not enough for our salvation and righteousness.
Eliza
Susan: {{{{{}}}}}
Queen, ordinarily I might tend to agree but today I am a bit chocolated out!
I was just thinking about the comments of Kevin Swanson being a “shock jock”.
Is that what we are really supposed to be as Christians? Pastors..or Christian Teachers? Why do people really think it’s completely okay to say something so shocking to reach people?
Whatever happened to the truth..and the truth spoken in love? That doesn’t mean that you can’t be truthful and firm in what you are speaking. I really think that is what Karen tries to do on this.
I have seen just a few short video’s of these men speaking..They may speak on the scriptures at times and it may be good, but I was thinking..When they go off on things that maybe are just personal opinion or rantings..Are they just not like these guys of public radio who spout off all day! It’s almost like they are just a little too full of themselves.
It can happen to Christian men too! It’s called Pride! I have seen him and other men in the Reformed Pres. Church quoted and I just can’t figure it.They obviously are having an impact on homeschoolers and I think that’s why Karen tries to bring all this into the light of the truth.
My pastor is a Godly man and a Great Speaker. I know he’s not perfect..lol..but when he preaches..It’s always to bring Glory to God and not himself.
My husband himself is a very Godly Bible teacher and has never gone off on anything of these sorts. He is also a very humble man and doesn’t feel qualified to preach but when he does..thru humility and looking to the Lord..It is very convicting and God honoring.
We have to sometimes just remember that men are just men! There should Never be a following..uggg..of any kind for these men!
Hi Michelle,
I hope I can answer your questions.
“Sometimes it just seems you have such a beef with these guys you will go to all lengths to destroy their names. Do you not consider them brothers in Christ? and if not, why not?”
My first thoughts in reading your post is that you haven’t really read and followed the links I have provided about the leaders in the patriocentric movement. I also wondered if you had listened to any of the podcasts that apply to this topic because I have been very thorough in my explanations. I would highly recommend that you type in either the names or the topics into my blog search box and read and/or listen to answer your questions if this is the case.
But then I read your comments about my “beef with Voddie” in response to the same article where I mention his quote about daughters and felt really sad. If you sincerely don’t understand my concerns about Voddie, you would have asked me about that quote. On the other hand, if you still don’t get my outrage at that quote, you have chosen to follow Voddie in spite of it. What do you think of his quote about daughters?
I have a 91 year old friend who once declared “When we are doing the right thing, we want everyone to know about it. But when are doing the wrong things, we don’t want anyone to talk about it.” Such wise words! If what the patriocentrists are saying is good and right and true, they and their followers will want everyone to talk about it and quote them etc. But if what they say is problematic, they will not want it discussed or dissected or critiqued. They will make up excuses such as “he didn’t mean to say that” or “you misunderstood” etc.
For the record, while I do believe they are profess to be Christians and I have no doubt that is true, I also believe they are false teachers, as were the Pharisees, who tied burdens on the backs of others in order to have control (and hierarchy) over others.
“So, do you think it would be necessary for you to make your issues with FICs more balanced? Do you think maybe that you have at times went to the other extreme?”
This is confusing to me. I have provided hours of podcasts, quotes, and brought in others, including two pastors who hold to the doctrines of grace, to examine the teachings of the FIC movement that are not only extreme but are being promoted as the “only biblical way” to experience church life and yet you think I am the one out of balance? Scratching head! Again, have you even listened to or read the articles I have written? Have you read the Pros and Cons article, especially the last couple of segments? Do I declare all FIC’s as anathema? Have you contacted Scott Brown or Kevin Swanson or Voddie Baucham and asked them to be more balanced, as in asking them not to have as their agenda to see every single homeschooling family in FIC’s? Have you asked them to not be so extreme? While you may attend an FIC that does not appear to embrace all the teachings of the FIC movement itself, does that mean that they don’t teach these things? The fact that almost everyone in your FIC homeschools tells me your church is pretty well steeped in these teachings whether you believe it or not. Let me be honest…is there the goal to see that everyone homeschools eventually, that they just “need to be brought along?”
“Back to Kevin Swanson. I agree with everything you have said. He says things sometimes that are outrageous. My husband listens to him a few times a week while working. When I’ve brought up these issues with my husband here is what he told me. “You can’t write him off as a bad person or an unbeliever just because he’s said this stuff. He’s a shock jock, he says things to get attention. He still has good points and is, we can assume, still a believer.”
So is “shock jock” now a spiritual gift? And making up facts knowing real people are making life decisions based on those facts is righteous behavior? You know, it just occurred to me how this is a true picture of what immodesty is. It has far less to do with a woman’s clothing choices than it does Kevin’s attention getting. Tell your husband I suggest he rethink this one.
“And just curious, did you give Jenny and Stacey an opportunity to speak on your podcast? I never knew they had wanted to make some things clear on the book???”
This is all documented on this blog, too. Just type it into the search box as there were several entries about it. Bottom line: I asked readers to list their questions and gave Jennie and Stacy an opportunity on numerous occasions to answer those specifically. They refused. My husband, who produces the podcast, and I decided that their book views are not reflective of true biblical one anothering and thus did not want to add a podcast with them to our archives. Absolutely never did I ever not allow comments or responses from them on my blog. In fact, I would have welcomed a reasoned discussion where others could also be involved but they refused.
Cannot get this to edit properly. This paragraph was mine: “So is “shock jock” now a spiritual gift? And making up facts knowing real people are making life decisions based on those facts is righteous behavior? You know, it just occurred to me how this is a true picture of what immodesty is. It has far less to do with a woman’s clothing choices than it does Kevin’s attention getting. Tell your husband I suggest he rethink this one.”
kh, you brought up such a good point. There is a HUGE problem with the notion of “celebrity status” within the church today. It certainly is not limited to the homeschooing community either. When people start to think of themselves as celebrities and they get a following no one thinks it is ok to hold them accountable and they don’t think so either. And then when we combine that with those who think “touch not the Lord’s annointed” is a verse that applies AND church hierarchy ideals within church polity, it is a perfect storm for letting these things just go by without challenge.
You know as I have been thinking about this topic this morning, it has occurred tome that there is a lot of application of post-modern thought going on within the patriocentric culture…..now working on a post about that.
A lot of narcissism too…
I mean pride and narcissism. I think there is so much building of legends “in one’s own mind” these days. Lots of self love. Easy for it to happen w/ Facebook, blogs, etc…. Your post on Facebook this AM @ 13 yr old baby pix – made me think of the narcissism first. So many are posting their “business” immediately w/out contemplating the effect or further implications and then same people are upset when they don’t get a quick response/good response/any response. But, Just like any part of a Christian’s life, we must constantly humble ourselves and make sure we are not placing. *anything* above God and our relationship w/Jesus. What is our motive? Des the Holy Spirit need our help?
Not sure I will get to answering all of those things, I’m kind of tired just reading the responses. I have never said that I don’t understand why Karen is doing what she is doing. I get it. I am very discerning with what we believe and THAT is why I follow her blog.
I did listen to your podcasts on the FIC last summer. Most of them. I did read the Pros/Cons when I first started following. I guess more or less when I speak of your negativity toward the FIC it is more about your general writings. I have not contacted those people. (The only reason I know who Scott Brown is BTW…is because of your writings.) Why have I not contacted them? Because I don’t follow their blogs or listen to their podcasts. I do yours. I have read one of Voddie’s books and liked it. I enjoyed listening to his teachings on Romans and other sermons. Other than the quote you mentioned, I haven’t heard him say anything that I didn’t find biblical or if it wasn’t biblical, it was probably still the more wise decision. Either way, the qoute you mentioned I refuse to make a judgment on since I don’t in what context he said it. Yes, it sounds weird…but I know nothing about it.
I haven’t followed all your links…I have four kids 5 and under and don’t have time to chase every rabbit hole. I read what I can and move on…hardly ever commenting on anything.
I commented to give you my opinion from MY perspective. I never expected to be responded to the way you did in such a sarcastic and demeaning manner. Especially from a Titus 2 mentor. If I was beign led astray or misunderstanding something, I would hope you would gently admonish me in the right direction. It may just be the lack of tone in writing, but that is not what I felt I received.
kh,
I just said the same thing to my husband about Kevin Swanson last week. Should we as Christians be willing to be a “shock jock” to get attention? I agree with most of everything everyone here is saying. There just isn’t alot of gentleness in everyone’s tone when I read the comments on this blog.
What is most amazing to me is that no one that follows this blog is guilty of being prideful.
And just out of curiosity…I know how much time you spend criticizing and pointing out their errors, but how much time do you spend praying for their repentance?
Michele, I will be here the first to admit here that there have been many times in my life that I have been prideful. I don’t have the time to do all the research on some of the people mentioned here so I can only go by what I have seen.
When I speak up on here..maybe it’s my pride in a way and I feel like I need to say something..I really don’t like conflict but I have seen so many quotes from people from this type of church..I am not condeming them all but I guess I just don’t understand where some of them are coming from..
As Christians..We do have to be careful because there are so many false teachers out there.I have personally often struggled after hearing teachers like this..”Are they really Christians”..sounds judgemental I know but aren’t we supposed to judge what is right and what is wrong.
I will admit here that I do not spend time praying for these people.I really don’t know how to pray for them..
My husband and I have been in churches that didn’t really call themselves family integrated churches but they were very similar and one of the things we noticed that there was so much emphasis on the family..and the families in the church, that there was no emphasis on the lost, or elderly, or those who didn’t have families like all of ours. I’m sure that there are many that are not like that but we saw to many that were. I am FOR the family..don’t get me wrong!
Just my thoughts..
Karen – I don’t think you have been sarcastic with Michelle. I think your words have been reasoned and logical, a warning to those who put too much emphasis on the teachings of MEN, rather than what God has reavealed in the Bible. Keep up the good work. Michelle – your comment about “how much time praying for them” comes across as really self-righteous and sanctimonious. You are “shooting the messenger” for the exposure of the message.
Kevin is one of the few Patriarchal homeschoolers that actually make me laugh. Some of them make me mad, but his claims are so outrageous that I just laugh. Where did you hear that the Indianapolis convention was to do all that? I believe you, just curious.
Michelle –
Glad you wrote again, I don’t think anyone intended to make you feel uncomfortable. I am sorry if I said anything that made you feel judged. It’s good to ask questions, that is how we all learn. I applaud you for reading and learning.
The problem is that there are subtle messages that are “preached” by association, relationship and from the pulpit in some places or the homeschool conferences that are deceiving, they are based on fear on not on Christ and they are extra burdens to the life of the believer.
I think the last post that linked to the writing that talked about white supremicy will bring a bigger picture that there is an understanding that is linked to an agenda to these nice ideas about courtship, making your siblings best friends or outlawing sunday school. I think it’s deeper than his post even goes into. If you have time there are some really great podcasts on this website that tie it all together. it’s not only the people who are representing these ideas, who are saying questionable things it’s the whole theology that they are subscribing to. And frankly the division these ideas are causing in the body of christ, both relationally on a personal level and corporately among churches is sad and is enough to say to the christian community to wake up and take notice.
For example, the teaching that encompasses the FIC movement is extra biblical – it adds to the work of christ on the cross. It’s extra, it’s not necessary. If it was a preference like we enjoy standing up the whole service in this church and that would be one thing but they are claiming that this is the “Biblical Way to do Church” as if they have a corner on the market of what is biblical and that just brings self inflation. The FIC have defined themselves as a family of families, (I have heard it myself personally) and truly the Church is Christ’s Bride where all are clean and equal by the blood of christ. This is a movement that has been born out of a theology steeped in Christian Reconstructionism, a theology that developed in the 60′s and I have come to believe and it’s off track, in my opinion, it’s not biblical. So I ask myself how can something healthy be born from this platform that is faulty?
I can tell you from my experience, I have lived among , very closely with folks who follow these teachings that is spoken of on this blog for many years and I often don’t know how to pray for them or love them as you suggest, though I try every day as I do love them deeply- I have cried over it and lost sleep over the deception that they believe and through that journey I have realized that God will work it out with them, somehow. It’s hard because these beliefs are such a part of them that we can’t talk about it or discuss them as you are doing here. And I realized too that I have been affected by being in association with these folks before I understood them to be dangerous and that it had influenced me subtly, It has changed how I have parented and who I am in many cases. Upon this understanding of what this was all about, I was very sad as I began to realize the falseness that I believed with out even knowing it and how I strayed from trusting God in all things. And I think others here have had similar experiences and truly have been hurt by these false teachings.
Like for example, I have never sent my kids to youth group because that is not the homeschool way. There is just something about it that isn’t spiritual and just not a good idea – was the spoken or unspoken thinking that I just absorbed by being around other homeschoolers. Even though most in my church didn’t homeschool. So just this year I sent my two teenagers to a camp retreat and as I was greeted in the parking lot (this is the church we go to by the way) I found myself with these parents, loving people most of whom I have known my whole life through the extended local body of believers. What was I afraid of? My brother and I came home from retreats with new understanding and commitment to the Lord. Can’t God use different things in our lives to bring about his work. And yet the homeschool movement would quietly tell me no not all processes or programs are equal or holy and nothing good will come from this experience at camp away from parents. Besides we are homeschoolers, it is our charge to teach the children, who needs a youth pastor…? Those are the messages I heard through the movement, messages of pride and self sufficency. So be careful, from someone who has been there and really grown up as a young mom in this, the messages are subtle and deceiving.
Hope this gives you a fuller understanding of where I am coming from and helps you as your sorting these things out in your mind.
Eliza
PS —
I just came from an event this weekend where the young people (in their 20s, so no longer homeschooling, not married) were gushing over the fact that they were so excited that Kevin Swanson was speaking at their homeschool conference. He is very popular in these circles, I think perhaps he is like a rock star to some of these people.
And it wasn’t an opportunity to have a differing opinion, it was stated with such confidence as this is the best of the best that is out there in the homeschooling circle, amazing that he is coming to speak with us. And by association if you were there at this event and in this conversation you of course agreed that this who should everyone should be having at their homeschool conference.
I have not gotten strong enough or far enough away from these issues to speak up and have any differing opinion, I just smiled and nodded and continued to realize the stardom these pastors, speakers have achieved in their following. And prayed for my continued understanding and compassion for the isolated circles that these followers have created for themselves and they think it’s normal.
Eliza, I really appreciated your last comment because it reminds us that we are not discussing things that are just theories or theological perspectives, we are discussing teachings that affect very real people. As Julie Anne pointed out on a previous post, she often hears from those whose lives are so hurt and damaged by these teachings regularily and it is heartbreaking.
The other day I was chatting with one of my sons who had recently watched the first two seasons of Downton Abby with his wife. I asked him “So, who do you think is my favorite character?” And he immediately said “Isobel Crawley, Matthew’s mom!” And then he added “She is annoying.” I told him that, yes she is and that I love her because she always considers how decisions and policies are going to affect those who are the most vulnerable, whether they are prostitutes or wounded soldiers or a little old man who has never won a flower show. I identify with Isobel because she really isn’t concerned about convention, she is all about the real people involved. It matters little what we think of the FIC or patriarchy or any other manmade convention unless we first examine Scripture and then consider what the “law of unintended consequences” might look like.
I can never think through these things without looking first at what Scripture actually teaches and secondly how our application of Scripture actually works out in the lives of people, for good or for bad.
I live in Texas. Voddie lives here. My brother-in-law has stayed in his home, even my husband has his cell #. We are not in awe. His church meets in a Seventh Day Adventist church. When he wrote his book, “Family Driven Faith” his family had been home schooling for 1 year, that is right only 1 year. Before that his kids went to private school. When he wrote the book his older daughter was in 5th grade. Today she is probably 10th grade or 11th, but not college aged yet. At the time when he wrote the book on parenting, he was not the expert in the field of parenting.
“As iron sharpens iron” May we all Grow in Grace & Knowledge of Jesus Christ
It’s no coincidence that the country(Great Britian)that created and consumed Downton Abbey is the same one that legalized homosexual marriage this month(February, 2013).
http://thechristianpundit.org/2013/02/13/why-i-dont-watch-downton-abbey/
According to this article link, Jasmine Baucham is 22 years old.
http://mrspriceisrighthomeschooling.blogspot.com/2010/10/joyfully-at-home-by-jasmine-baucham.html
RE: Downton Abbey…..I just had a long discussion about Downton Abbey with a man who teaches the history of film and encourages young people to approach the arts with a Biblical worldview. I asked him what it is about Downton that people are so drawn to and he said that he believes it because it depicts a time where there were rules and boundaries and people long for that in the craziness of today’s culture. He pointed out that there are always consequences for “breaking the rules” in the story line. If you notice, Thomas who is drawn to the homosexual lifestyle is not warmly received and his behavior is considered to be aberrant. People are kind to him in spite of his behavior. I was disappointed in the link you provided because it was one more person reviewing something they have never watched or read themselves.
Regarding Kevin Swanson, I am reminded of something I read recently. There was a blogger who was discussing the her website and said content=endorsement. I think this would apply to various situations (radio shows, tv shows etc) and Kevin Swanson. These are not “misstatements”. He very much understands the importance of words, and as mentioned, has never done much to backpedal or apologize for statements made on his program.
Someone made the point in another thread, I believe, about how the “baby graveyard” statement in regard to the BCP was made by one of Kevin’s guests, and Kevin himself questioned the guest about what he was saying. Regardless, I think Swanson is very much responsible for this information being shared. He chose that guest for his show knowing much of what he was going to say. So, even though he questioned the guest a bit, he was giving an endorsement or credence to what was being said just by having him there. When you think of it, it really is a clever way to get controversial information out there. You can just point to your guest without taking much responsibility for it if there’s a big hullabaloo.
Another tactic used by those who want to manipulate people is the “throw it out there” method. Just throw the idea out there without much information, and sometimes people buy into it just because the person throwing it out there is thought of as an expert or person to be respected.
It is interesting how different people have different perspectives. I browse various Christian related blogs, and unfortunately they can get quite heated. Have you ever seen a discussion between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, and how ugly that can be? I actually was drawn to this blog because, in the relative sense, I think people behave themselves well and use reserve in speaking of some topics that are quite emotional or upsetting. I don’t think anyone claims sinlessness in speech. Since there is much discussion of false teachers and things that are very destructive to people, I would say that not every comment here is gentle. . . but I don’t think that it’s always wrong given the context of what is being discussed. Yes, we are to be loving and gracious in our attitude, but are we not allowed to rebuke people who are in the wrong???
I think one’s view of what is discussed here about FIC and the Patriarchy movement depends on how up close and personal it is for you. I have extended family that have been very damaged by it. They are my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, but I think they have missed so much of the joy of being in the family due to the man-made paradigms they embrace.
While I think we can all imagine that not all FIC churches are the same in what is taught, there is definitely a problem of association. For example, quite a large percentage of people who smoke never get lung cancer. However, a very, very large portion of those who get lung cancer were smokers. I think one can make the argument that while not all FIC embrace these extra Biblical teachings, the false teachings we are concerned about are all associated with FIC. . . if that makes sense.
Can’t wait for Season Four!!! What will happen to Matthew? Don’t knock Downton till you have seen it!
While we are on the topic of Downton – if you don’t like rape, incest, prostitution, murder, homosexuality, adultery or fornication….DONT READ THE BIBLE.
For a long time I held the same beliefs about birth control as stated above. However, recently I read a rather interesting article from the American Association of Prolife Obstetricians and Gynecologists that made me rethink my position. Basically, there is no research that shows a link between the thinned endometrium and failure of a pregnancy. The reason that it is listed on all pill inserts and has pretty much ascended to fact status is that it does thin the endometrial lining and theoretically could prevent pregnancy. The evidence suggests that if ovulation occurs, the surge of hormones from the corpeus luteum helps reverse the changes and permits implantation to occur. Here is a link to the full article if you are interested. http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/hormone-contraceptives-controversies-and-clarifications/
Michelle I really admire your faith and convictions…and your ability to parent 4 kids under 5!! I think Karen’s concerns are both about what this type of theology does to those inside the Christian HS world and how these crazy ( yes crazy) statements reflect on all Christians. As someone who is far removed from this world, I may have an outsiders eye. Mr. Swansons comments are all over mainstream mommy blogs and feminist blogs. They are having a field day ridiculing Mr Swanson and in turn those who follow his teachings. I suppose you may think ” who cares what the world says”. But then how do you evangelize to the world? Which I understand is a main tentant of Evangelical Christians? Mr Swanson and his group from VF are doing their best to turn off potiental Christians, with racism, misogyny and idiocy! Who wants to associated with such teachings? Most thinking people will run not walk….
Great post, Karen.
On the birth control pill, it’s true that in a small percentage of cases, breakthrough ovulation can occur. Some of the fertilized eggs actually do implant, though. (I know people who have gotten pregnant while on the pill.)
However, I saw a study that among 10 women not using the pill, around 6 will have eggs fertilized every year. Of those six fertilized eggs, three of them will not implant in the uterus.
The number of pill users who will get pregnant is drastically fewer, resulting in FEWER fertilized eggs that fail to implant. So the pill use can actually be pro-life in a sense that fewer fertilized eggs are rejected.
RoniSue,
Thanks for the link. I have also read other articles indicating that the theory of BCP causing an inhospitable uterine lining was something that doctors speculated about decades ago, but never had any good evidence for. The article you linked to makes the important point that if hormone levels are high enough to allow ovulation, they are also high enough that the lining would be normal. The months where the lining is abnormally thin, the hormone levels are too low to allow ovulation.
The cynic in me thinks that the patriarchy crowd wants the BCP to cause failed implantations so they can convince more people that contraception is evil. I think they would be very disappointed to find out they are wrong. They don’t want to know the truth and no amount of scientific evidence will convince them.
I’ve been traveling a good bit and missed this article. Good stuff, Karen. I’m sending it to my new FB page