part eleven of the podcast series on the family integrated church movement

I loved this point:

“Hierarchy is not relational. It is chain of command. It plays down, suppresses, and does not cultivate relationships.”

I also appreciated the point about Matthew 18.

Excellent podcast. You can tell how passionately he feels about how the ekklesia should function.

Karen – Did you read “Pagan Christianity”? You should if you haven’t. But don’t read it unless you really want to rethink everything you’ve been led to believe about church.

In Galatians 1:11-2:14 Paul describes how he received the Gospel and his calling as apostle directly from God and not from man. He did not meet any of the Jerusalem apostles until 3 years after starting his ministry and then it was another 14 years before he returned to Jerusalem to confirm the accuracy of his theology. In Gal 2:6 Paul remarks, “But from those who seemed to be something – whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man – for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.” Paul was received by them as an equal. He even felt justified to rebuke Peter publicly when Peter’s behavior did not conform to the Gospel message. There is no hint of a hierarchal command system in the earliest church.

Because the church is a priesthood of believers, the leaders are really sheep tending sheep, all being under the authority of the Great Shepherd, Jesus Christ.
Too many assume that a leadership position automatically comes with godly wisdom, but it does not. One can be a wise leader or a foolish leader. (Jer 10:21 “For the shepherds have become stupid And have not sought the LORD; Therefore they have not prospered, And all their flock is scattered.”) Only God can impart wisdom and He gives it graciously to anyone who asks, regardless of his or her giftings or position. This is a good reason why we need to be humble enough to receive wisdom from anyone God chooses to give it through. God wants every one of His children to grow in His wisdom in order to minister to others. Elders ought to be those who have already manifested mature wisdom long before being chosen for their leadership positions in the church.

Church members are also expected to test their leaders’ teachings to make sure they are not heretical. In Revelation 2:2 Jesus praises the Ephesian church, “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars:” How can we test teachings if we ourselves do not diligently study the Word? 1 Tim 5:19-22, especially vs.19-20: “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.” Leaders are not above correction by the church body or public rebukes when they sin. It is those who passively sit in the pews for decades without doing anything else who are truly “out of order.” Jesus expects each one of us to grow in wisdom and actively function in the body of Christ that He has gifted us.

Hello, I left this comment on Karen’s Facebook page: “Karen, I’ve just listened to the eleventh part of your podcast and it was right on the money!! What Jon Zens described is SO accurate, even where I am! We’ve also reached the same conclusion, that one-man shows are not what the church was meant to be!!!” I truly was excited about this podcast.

Karen wondered what I could share of what I know in this respect regarding the situation in my country (I’m Romanian).

Since I’m Baptist, I’ll refer to Baptist churches I’m familiar with. I’d say there are three types of Baptist churches here. There are those that are part of a hierarchical organization called the ‘Baptist Union’, about which there’s a whole lot that I consider wrong. The BU is very Armenian (aggressively so) and the churches that I’ve been familiar with are full of ethical problems… (I won’t get into details now… but love of money leads to all kinds of things.) They are led by one or more pastors plus a committee, which pretty much decide on things (and once a year there is a general meeting in which the whole church comes together to be presented with the financial situation and to vote on different issues).

The church members, other than what they read in their own Bibles, are not really taught (in my experience) how to solve inter-personal problems and to act out what is written in Matthew 18, for instance. The pastor and the committee usually deal with whoever ‘falls into sin’ and present it to the church in a couple of sentences for church discipline(‘such and such fell into sin, we talked to him, he refuses to repent, would you please vote if you agree for him to be excluded from the church?’).

Then there are independent churches that have a fundamentalist flavor… many started by an American Independent Fundamentalist missionary. They are very strong on separation. I for one now reject many of the things they teach. If you follow those teachings, you know for sure which is the one Bible version God likes, which is the one way of dressing as a woman that God approves of, the one way of raising godly children, the one kind of godly music, the exact way the eschatological events will turn out, etc., etc.

And more recently there have appeared independent churches that are of a Reformed nature, which seemed a breath of fresh air for those of us who hold to the doctrines of grace. It’s these churches I was really thinking about when I made the comment that the podcast was so spot on. From the few churches I’ve become familiar that belong to this category, I can say that they focus a lot on the regulative principle. I can understand that they tend to reject much of what they were familiar with from the BU churches, where a good part of ‘worship’ was rather a show-off of human talent, and often worldliness – like an ‘artistic’ program of solos, duos, poems recited, choir singing… and the ‘regular’ member felt like a spectator watching a show.

At the same time though, these Reformed churches use the regulative principle only as a negative thing – as a reason why they DON’T do certain things (have a choir, an orchestra, a ‘people have got talent’ kind of show). They certainly do NOT use it as a positive thing – not just of not doing what the Bible doesn’t say to do, but of actually DOING what it says to do. All that is written about the people of the church ministering to one another in order to edify each other (in 1 Cor., for instance)… is sadly missing from the church service. There is nothing but the pastor opening up with a prayer, the pastor choosing and announcing the first song, the pastor doing the first reading of the Bible, the pastor announcing the second song, the pastor maybe making a few announcements and announcing the third song, the pastor maybe calling on another man to pray, or rather praying himself again, the pastor preaching, the pastor announcing the last song and doing the ending prayer. If that is not a one-man show, what is! That is not what we see in the New Testament as taking place, and Jon Zens articulated that wonderfully clear. It sounded sadly familiar when I listened to it. I personally feel more edified when I meet a family of Christian friends and we share our struggles, our problems and victories, what we’ve learned lately form the Bible and so on… All informally, with everyone free to pitch in. It’s not what is officially called ‘church’, but it sure is fellowship. The other thing is not.

I long for a time when the church members can all, if led by God, get up to share something – a tremendous answer to prayer they had had during the week, a problem at work they don’t know how to deal with and would like the church to pray for, some personal delivery God provided… something that could edify. It wouldn’t have to be long-winded. It may run the risk of every once in a while someone saying smth out of line, maybe… That would be a learning experience or how to organize things better. But it would be LIFE. Where Life is, things occasionally get messy. Where everything is scripted very tightly, as to avoid any possible mishap, yeah, you (as a pastor) have absolute control. But things are dry and DEAD. Death is neat and orderly. Life is unpredictable and occasionally messy, but I’d take life any day.

Sorry if this turned out too long.

Thank you for welcoming me!

Would a discussion on the Regulative Principle compared to the Normative Principle be appropriate? Does it have some impact on the issues generally discussed here, e.g. FIC, patriarchy? (As you might surmise, I lean towards the R.P.)