is this a picture of true complementarianism or not?

This is opportunism, pure and simple, to boost Piper’s agenda. Wartburg Watch did a post on it awhile back.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/06/15/ian-and-larissa-a-complicated-story-of-love-spiritual-authority-and-agendas/

I think it shows that people and marriages are not easily pigeon-holed. Each is so different. Their story is particularly unusual and I don’t know what to make of it. Keep in mind they are in the context of the SGM paradigm (as I was for many years) which is strongly complementarian, and that is the logical mold for them to aspire to fit into. Whatever, they are inspiring even if we don’t like how their story has been promoted.

I agree with both thatmom and Sad Observer. This is a great picture of sacrificial love on Larissa’s part — the sacrificial love that comps insist is a male role. There’s nothing distinctive about what Ian does or doesn’t do to make this marriage complementarian. Piper et al are trying to make it fit the paradigm with their newspeak, but saying it doesn’t make it so.

It’s an inspiring, unusual story but doesn’t really show, practically, how Ian is her head. A bit off topic, but I wondered about the wisdom of Ian’s dad in encouraging them to either get married or end the relationship. Did it have to be either/or? But again, it’s a really unusual situation and hard to come to any conclusions without being more involved in the particular circumstances.

Whoah, what is going on here? Shot like a high-end music video, the seductive visuals and soft music draw you into what is, at first sight, a touching romance. Then come the questions about whether or not the marriage is really John Piper’s book come to life. I concur with all the comments here, and would like to throw in something else:

I have no experience of being a newlywed with a disabled husband. But I have been a newlywed. It is way too early in *any* marriage for the couple to be held up as an example to the world. People need to be left alone to get on with it. Even Prince William and the lovely and fragrant Kate were allowed to decamp to their Welsh cottage for a while. Someone might well tell me that they were wed 4 years ago or something like that. That is still newlywed, in my book.

As a pastor, Mr Piper could really do more for them if they were less exposed to public view.

I’ve been reading through Larissa’s blog, prayforian.com, and found this specific example of what submission looks like for her:

“ian, we’re being given a car for free. should we sell ours or give it away too?”

“we have to give it away.”

he’s a profoundly solid and simple leader. because of that, it’s usually a joy to follow his direction. especially when it came to the car. he knew that because we were being blessed with a car for free, that we could in turn bless someone else just as much. i might not have made that decision on my own. or, i could have just not told him, and made the decision myself.

that’s where being married to a husband with a brain injury relies solely on the work of the Holy Spirit in my heart. it is tempting to just make decisions, spend money, or do things without telling ian. i could get away with a lot. he’s not paying attention to the details, simply because he can’t. unless i, being his helper, bring those things to him, and allow him to lead me.

“wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.” – Ephesians 5:22.

submission for me is so clearly an action. i need to bring things to ian. he has given me the trust and confidence that i need to make some decisions on my own, like good husbands do.

I don’t see how this fits complementarianism given that she is basically the “Christ figure” in this marriage. Certainly, her husband loves her, but he is not in the position to lead in major ways, protect, or provide. I mean absolutely no disrespect to this man or woman, but even in the spiritual realm he appears to have a sweet Child-like faith, and seems not to be able to articulate thoughts in a way that might nurture his wife spiritually. Having said that, I mean no disrespect to this couple and this is certainly a sweet and beautiful story.
I do think this story, instead, shows that marriage is not about following a mold or man made system or idea of what it has to look like. We are all on our own journey, faced with different circumstances, different gifts, and the Lord leads us all down different paths.

And while this is a beautiful story, the video is just too tidy and simple in how their relationship is portrayed. Although I realize she didn’t rush into this, I just have to wonder if years from now she might be carrying around some serious heartache. I think time and experience can make one feel hurt and loss in a way that nothing else can. We also change too in our wants, desires, and how we look at things. I’m sure she’ll be forever committed to him, but I do wonder about private anguish she might endure as the years go on, especially as her friends have children and experience family life in a way she will never know.

I am a little confused by this video and so I am going to recap. Please, anyone correct me if I get this wrong.

1. A beautiful outdoor wedding starts off the video. It becomes soon apparent that the groom is handicapped in some capacity.

2. A short story is given of the 10 months they dated.

3. Alissa says that she knew Ian had been ring-shopping.

4. He is in a terrible car accident and she moves into his parents’ home to help care for him.

5. As he slowly heals, his father finds out he has terminal cancer and expresses his desire that they marry? (still not sure on that one, maybe he only wanted them to make a choice?)

6. The man he wants her to marry is his son, who has a severe handicap due to the accident and has to rely on others solely to care for him.

7. Then. . . she proposes? He proposes? we don’t know.

8. She now is a wife who “submits” to her husband because, though severely handicapped, he is the spiritual leader.

Is this a true assessment? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

So. This video is used to promote complimentarianism by John Piper. This is where it gets confusing to me (that and the part where she makes sure that everyone watching knows that Ian is still the “spiritual leader” in their marriage).

I want to word what I say next very carefully because we do have a brother and sister in Christ involved here, and the situation is very fragile. If I come off harsh, this is not my intention.

My initial concern is, this was not a marriage made on mutual agreement. Ian is not in a position to make decisions and someone even had to give legal permission in order for the marriage to even take place. I could be wrong in my assessment but we are not given any specifics on how the engagement even began, other then Ian’s dad was concerned about their relationship and then somehow they got engaged.

Secondly, Alissa says at least once that Ian is the spiritual leader. Now, we know from discussing this over the past month that no one seems to know what being a spiritual leader means, or at least not in the complementarian camp. Because of this, one would expect to seem some practical examples in the video on how this is so. We are shown no examples. Instead, we only see Alissa caring for her husband in sacrificial ways.

So, this brings me to my great concern. Obviously, from this video, just being male makes Ian the “spiritual leader” according to Piper. What follows in the video makes it seem that even though Alissa is the one with the greater capacity to make wise decisions, Ian still must be submitted to and must be counted on to make lead Alissa in a spiritual way.

The example she brings up on her blog about giving their car away? Sure. That was a decision made by Ian in which she submitted. This is all fine and good. But is this all that being a spiritual leader is? No. It seems to me that according to the gospel, being a leader is more than making decisions and then telling your wife what to do. It is to nurture and to encourage growth, to care for one another and see that that person is growing spiritually. Maybe Ian is doing this, maybe not. But what we see now, if he is not doing this because he can’t physically think through ways to encourage her growth, that this system of complimentarianism put forth by Piper is nothing more that one person commanding and the other person obeying.

In my opinion, this video was a poor example for Piper to use to promote his view of marriage. If anything, if people really watch it, they will sway the other way, thinking “I want nothing to do with this kind of thing.” I know I don’t.

Since a few other people have commented on this aspect of the video, I want to bring it up as well.

Larissa states that Ian’s father–who, unfortunately, lost his battle with cancer according to the blog —- was the main “impetus” for them to go ahead and get engaged.

Does this not seem like another way that the film was edited to try and put a complementarian spin on things? Reading between the lines, it almost seems that Larissa, and not Ian, was the one capable of really thinking about the engagement question (based on the fact that Ian’s father came to her to discuss it, yes?)…but the decision was still “initiated” by a male because Ian’s dad started the convo.

I don’t know. It just seems like this story of adversity, marriage and love has been pulled and tied in knots and edited in a certain way to get a certain message across. I agree with those who said “Let their story be what it is and stop promoting it.” Especially since their marriage is young. What if Larissa were to ever go through a time of great spiritual crisis and turmoil because of the difficulties of their lifestyle? Wouldn’t she be entitled to work through that in private, without feeling like her life had been put on display as some kind of “example?” Knowing that she was on display might make her less likely to admit and deal with any difficult emotions she may experience. This would ultimately hurt the marriage, not help it.

You all have given me so much food for thought. Thank you.

I got a very different feel from the blog than I did the video. Looking at the pix and reading about Ian’s and Larissa’s interactions on the blog left me thinking Ian was less disabled than I thought the video portrayed him.

I had the impression, and I could be wrong, but Ian’s dad saying “fish or cut bait” was at least partly for Larissa’s benefit. She didn’t need to keep her life in a holding pattern there – it wasn’t doing her any good. Move on or move out. I would have told my daughter or prospective child-in-law the same thing.

Larissa on her blog stated that it’s intimidating to her to look to the future and wonder how her marriage would be in ten, twenty, fifty years. Looking back over the 30 years of my marriage, I can trace how my husband changed, I changed, our relationship changed, to transform us from how we were to how we are. But at the beginning there was no way we could have known that. Any couple just has to step out there, and Larissa has more reason than most of us to know that the best-laid plans can go straight down the tubes at any time. I wish them both the best.

I do want to add to my comments that I only spoke to what I saw in the video, with the exception of the example of the car. Also, I continually spoke of her as Alissa; yet, her name is Larissa. Sorry.

The funny thing, if I hadn’t seen a mention of her having a blog in the comments, I never would have known there was such a thing. The video was purely promotional material without really getting to know who Ian and Larissa are.

Here’s a similar story yet this couple has been married for 40yrs. Be sure to scroll down and watch all 4 parts – less than 15 minutes. Thoughts, anyone?

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/he-finished-well-a-tribute-to-mike-stohlmeyer

Lot’s of things have been said, and I can see all the important points that are brought up. The interesting thing though, is that Ian *MIGHT* still have his “mind” in the sense of thinking and thought. He just can’t express it becaues of the type of injury to his brain.

I am reminded of the Story of Kathy Miller, who had a brain injury, and eventually overcame it to the point, where she led a semi-normal life, with the worst noticeable effects being a slight speech slur.

The whole time she was “a vegetable” she had her mind working the way it always had.

This *could* be the case with Ian.

However, the whole religious overtones of patriarchy and John Piper about this is disturbing. And I wouldn’t want my daughter to marry someone like this, unless I knew *for sure* that his mind was “there”, even though it couldn’t be expressed properly. If Ian’s mind isn’t “there” this isn’t husband and wife, but mother and son. It’s a totally different thing if she was already married and this happened. And if my daughter would want to marry a man like this, she needs to know that it would be the hardest work she *ever* did, and she would be tempted down the road to give up, and quit. She should be prepared to never have children, and provide all the finances, and to give up anything that brings her enjoyment.

I have several friends that have spouses with severe disabilities and it is *VERY* taxing on them emotionally and spiritually….as well as physically, and financially, but they all have their minds working to full capacity. I think it would be 10x’s harder if Ian’s mind was that of a child, and not of a man.

Also, a friend of mine, who is in circles that are touting this story as awesomely “spiritual” is really bothered that they are making this couple out to be more spiritual than the rest. She doesn’t think it’s such a great thing. She sees it more of a sad thing, because the girl is so young, and really doesn’t know what she wants, and very well could crush under the pressure later on in the marriage and she has no “legal” way out of it. Her hubby won’t cheat on her, and he doesn’t abuse her.

Also in the movie, Larissa says that what helps her, is knowing if the roles were reversed, Ian wouldn’t of left her.

First of all, does she really know that?

Secondly, this comes across as her marrying him out of duty, because she feels obligated to do what she *THINKS* he might of done for her.

Thirdly, If Ian’s mind *is* all there, wouldn’t you think he would feel guilty for making Larissa feel like she had to marry him, because he would of done the same for her? Do you think he would be grateful to her for her “sacrifice” or humiliated? Do you not think he would feel selfish for taking all that energy and work out of Larissa, without being able to return true “husbandly” affection?

I asked my husband this question. He says, he would really have a big issue with me marrying him on purpose, just to take care of him like a little child, and not be able to reciprocate some of my needs as a wife. It would make him feel worse, rather than better.

Now, again, if this were to happen to him *after* our marriage it is different. But entering into it before is very questionable to me.

However, saying that. It may very well of been God’s direction for her life, and she married him on faith, with the belief that this was what God intended for her. If that is the case, then she is going to need a LOT of outside help and support and love. Not judgment.

And even if it isn’t the case, it is NOW what God wants…and she is going to need love and support and help to make it through her life.

But instead of belittling her for her decision, she needs to be offered the truth of Grace, instead of relying on cultic men who work by guilt, and crazy unscriptural ideas.

She needs to be shown that her decision to marry Ian, wasn’t “UBER SPIRITUAL” over someone who marries a “normal” spouse. She needs to know that what the “normal” spouse looks forward to in marriage *is* exciting and there is nothing wrong with them. That they’re excitement isn’t over “secondary” things. And she married over “primary” things.

Also, I think she looks quite exhausted and sad in this video. She looked like a totally different woman in her wedding day. Of course all of us look a bit more haggard and older after the “honeymoon” as we deal with the normal pressures of life. But she looks especially burdened and tired.

So I don’t think the video portrays a “real” picture of what this marriage looks like.

And having said that, from my husband’s male perspective, this *IS* an ideal complementaritian marriage, based on the patriocentric (sp?) definition, because Ian is getting all the benefits, and the woman “serves” the man, and sacrifices her needs, desires, and passions, and submits to a man that takes it all from her, and won’t give any reciprocation back.

I went back and read her blog again, and saw a post implying that she would like to have children. As this relationship goes more and more public, can you imagine the strain on her with the addition of children? How would she work to support them and handle a disabled husband and a baby? They seem to have some help, but this doesn’t seem to be an extended family that could take over all of their needs. If he worked long enough, he would qualify for social security disability, but that isn’t enough to support a family, especially if there are medical needs.

P.S. There is nothing naughty in the video, so I am mystified as to why it’s age restricted.

when i see this girl…I feel so saddened, thinking she must not value herself very highly.
she seems to be living in a dream~world. if they had been married before-hand…then of course, her sacrifice would be notable. as many have said above… you can run off the steam of your “sacrifice” for awhile…
but eventually, I’m scared what will happen when she wakes up, (grows up a little?), and realizes that she wants a PARTNER, a lover, a friend—not a forever~child that she lets “make the decisions.” will she remain committed to this cause? for the sake of, what? God? did God call her to this?

And the blog link up about her submission to his decision about the “car.” That deepens my sadness. It’s another picture of “dream-world.” How easy would it be to “submit” in a marriage like this? the mentality: I’ll let you in on the things *i think* are “submission items.” poor thing. she has no idea how difficult life becomes as you go. I have only a glimpse of an idea having been married over 12 years and raising a house full of children. submission and husband/wife roles become much more complex than “what should we do with a free car?” but then, maybe they won’t for this couple? maybe she’ll just bring those simple issues to him and submit to them, because she’s bringing to him things that are easily submittable.

I just shutter when I think about the future for this beautiful young girl. and i mean her no disrespect in my response. I truly believe she thinks she did the best thing. if she were my daughter, i think i’d shudder every time I left her home after visiting. and if it would have been my son’s girlfriend…..i believe i can say i *know* i would have begged the girl to cut herself loose. to be involved as a loving friend to a man she was beginning to love for the rest of her life if she wanted….but to find herself a partner that would be able to meet her needs and she his.

so. sad.

Karen, thank you for the link. That poor girl is lucky she’s alive. I can’t help but wonder if she wanted to go Europe or if it was forced on her? I don’t think many women caring for newborns would want to do that. There’s not just the issue of her own well being but the baby as well. Getting on a lengthy flight with recirculated air is not exactly would pediatricians would recommend for an 11 day old baby.