“A complementary angle is two angles that add up to 90 degrees.”
After last week’s explosion over at the Gospel Coalition and Jared Wilson’s article consisting of that dreadful quote by patriocentrist Doug Wilson from Credenda Agenda, it is interesting to see the slurs flying every which way. I see patriocentricity pouring into mainstream evangelicalism and wonder how much flood damage will occur before one of the self-proclaimed leaders of complementarianism will speak out. I am not holding my breath. It is difficult to write about something so nebulous, especially if you make your living having an opinion that plays well to your sycophants. At this point, I am hoping beyond hope that Mary Kassian will address the teachings of Doug Wilson and now the ideas that have been put forth over the weekend by the Bayly brothers. It would take a lot of stamina because these guys are just plain mean bullies but if anyone in the original complementarian camp could do it, it would be Mary.
Religion researcher, George Barna, startled the evangelical world last summer when he reported the latest findings on the changes in religious activity in the lives of women during the past twenty years. He found that church attendance had dropped 11%, meaning that for the first time in American history, the majority of women, 56%, no longer attend church services during any given week. He discovered that 10% less women read their Bibles during the week with just four out of ten now doing so. This comes as no surprise since the number of women who believe the Bible to be a reliable resource for life and practice has dropped to 42%. And though Barna says women “have traditionally been the backbone of volunteer activities in the church,” there has been a whopping 31% reduction in the non-paid female work force in churches!
What does this all mean?
A friend of mine and I have been discussing this subject for months now. This is where we both are:
We are born again Christians who trust in Christ alone for our salvation. We believe that God’s word is inerrant in the original manuscripts. We are conservative and pro-life. We are homeschooling moms. We adore our husbands and are recipients of that same adoration! We purpose to daily practice the one anothers in our relationships. We have a heart for those who struggle and know the Gospel is the only means for life and godliness. We both have experienced spiritual abuse at the hands of legalistic patriocentrists. We both have chosen grace over man-made rules. We are both are strong, articulate women who speak and write with passion and have been gifted in many areas, including leadership and administration. So what is the problem? We are conservative so the churches and denominations that are inclined to open their doors to women and these sorts of gifts also are pro-choice and some are now even opening their arms to homosexual relationships. Conservative churches typically straight-jacket women and even the good, solid evangelical ones are slip-sliding further down the patriarchy/patrioentricity path.
Where do we fit into the body of Christ? The Barna research tells me that we are not alone in asking that question.
Last week this story was left on my FB page where I linked to my article on which view of complementarianism is correct and the more I have thought about it, the more I think it needs to be discussed! The writer, my friend, Ilene, asks if her parents were complementarian? What do you think?
Very interesting blog post. So what is it? Anyone’s guess (opinion). My parents were complementarian, in that Dad was the head of the household, but Mom was the neck that turned the head, or so they used to joke. In the church, my parents were both licensed ministers, and Mom acted as Dad’s assistant. She ran the children’s, mission’s, and women’s ministries. She played the piano and directed music in churches where that was a need, and she also sang special numbers and played the accordion. No one had to be hired for those jobs, because she ministered at Dad’s side…two for the price of many, a real asset in times of a tough economy. She frequently spoke from the pulpit, and I have a book of her sermon notes. She also went with Dad on most hospital and pastoral calls. Pastoral calls, what were those? They were visits to the homes of all the parishioners. I didn’t like those pastoral calls because I had to go along, and I was taught appropriate behaviors for those situations. I remember that I could not ask for candy from a candy dish unless it was offered, and I recall looking longingly at many a candy dish. I became an avid reader, as I most often went “calling” with a favorite book under my arm. If the weather was nice, I got to stay outside and play. Mom never had a paid job outside the home but never criticized those who did. She took joy in her service to family and church, and Dad joyfully whistled his way through each day. “Whistling girls and crowing hens will always come to to some bad ends,” he used to laugh, while teaching me to whistle. I still whistle, and recognize that the rhythmic breathing required has a calming effect. They grew churches differently back then, but they did grow and thrive under that form of leadership. Do you think they were complementarian?
54 Responses to beyond the labels: what’s the angle on being complementarian?
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Join me on an adventure as we study through Chuck Swindoll’s book The Grace Awakening. Each Monday I will post some thoughts from a portion of the book and we will discuss them in the comment section, making special application for moms. (Dads and singles are welcome to join us, too!) You can purchase a copy of the book (there are lots of used copies available via Amazon) or it is also available on audio. I don’t want you to feel like you have to read along to join in the discussion; I want this to be as stress free as possible. But I know you will enjoy the book if you read it……understanding and embracing grace is life changing and many have found this book to be a great encouragement after coming through paradigm based ministries, including some homeschooling groups. Please invite your friends, I know you will be blessed!!! We will be starting on July 23rd!
Voting “present” as another woman exactly where you are your friend are right now. Thanks so much for this post.
Do you think the challenge comes at having labels at all? It seems to me that just as most would prefer a list of rules and regulations to follow to make sure they’re “doing it right” to get into heaven, vs. relying on Grace and the leading of the Holy Spirit, we (corporate we) have really focused too much on labels. As I’ve been reading over these past months Im actually confused on how to “label” myself. I agree on some egalitarian things, some complementarian things, though definatly nothing on the patriocentric side of things. So much of the labels and how you define yourself depends on your definition of such label. I think that just as we need to rely on the Holy Spirit in our lives -which then compels us to live as listed in the 10 commandments and scripture, we maybe need to shed these labels and live in our marriages according to the Holy Spirit. We were told in I Corinthians 13 how to Love. Maybe we should label ourselves I Corinthainites…….:)
Now here are some more thoughts:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/07/23/when_did_feminism_become_so_embarrassing_114867.html
Diane, I always think of these sorts of things as on a continuum and probably also on a bell shaped curve. I think various societal and culture issues come up and they cause the pendulum to swing from one end to the other in reaction rather than to standing firm and balancing properly in the normal, middle area. What all these things this past week represent to me is that it is coming out into the open what many of us have witnessed for years…the pendulum is swinging further and further down toward the patriocentric end of the spectrum where father and men worship is at the core of family and church life. It will correct itself eventually but with what cost? Just those Barna stats are scary. We all know how much women are responsible for,historically,in the local church. I am old enough to remember when there were no labels, only believers serving the Lord according to their gifts.
Good article you linked to.
I think women entering the work force had a couple of effects. One is that we aren’t as available for those unpaid volunteer positions, of course. But another is that we can aspire to leadership positions at work, and our coworkers respect us, and so it’s hard to return to a sit-down-shut-up position in a pew. You read about women in the sciences having a hard time, but once I open my mouth about my laboratory and what I do, the men I deal with shut up and listen. Ironic that “in Christ there is no male nor female,” but 2 millenia later (many denominations of) the church is lagging here.
Here is an interesting article by Waynw Grudem that shines more light on this: http://www.fpcjackson.org/resources/family_and_culture/christian%20manhood%20and%20womanhood/articles/grudem_wayne_but_what_should_women_do_in_the_church.htm
I just discovered your blog, although I have known your son for years. It is a great encouragement to read it, since both my wife and I spent time in abusive patriocentric systems, and my wife was spiritually abused as a young teen. I am glad to see it isn’t just my generation that is seeing the light. I too am worried that there doesn’t really seem to be a place in the modern church for strong, conservative women, who are in companionate marriages.
I totally agree we are seeing the true swing of the pendulum, and it is frightening. My natural tendancy is to lead, and I find so often people are threatened by that..worried that somehow Im going to try to “take over” when all I want to do is walk in the giftings God gave me. It is frustrating to be sure. I try hard not to be bossy, or just step in, so it means I retreat completely and instead feel stifled and frustrated… hard to find that happy medium…..
My husband on the other hand, loves knowing that he has a strong, capable wife at home who can handle most things when he’s gone and he doesn’t have to worry to much when he travels etc. We truly do complement each other. I take care to not take over from him, or become his mother, and he encourages me and edifies me in my giftings and what I bring to the table. He is a strong confident man in his own right, and believe me not one to let me walk all over him. (which is why I married him!!) I love that no matter what others say about me, even pastors, that he totally supports and loves me for who I am.
We left a family- integrated church where women could cook and clean, sing or play an instrument, but not even give announcements during the service. After being silenced for so long, I refuse to attend any church where women are not treated completely equal, including being ordained as Sr. pastor. Unfortunately, we live in a region where most churches are some sort of Baptist or non-denominationakchurch where women are allowed to run the daycare or Sunday School, but can’t be deacons, elders, or pastors.
We are leaving a house church because of a pedophile. I hope the Lutheran church we’re going to try works out, because we are running out of places to try and I won’t be silenced anymore
Thatmom, I’m wondering why you think the pendulum has swung this way? Why is it that ideologies that would have been abhorrent at a maximum or just looked at as strange at a minimum just a decade ago are trickling into many churches? I have wondered myself if could be related to the ” seeker” model that flourished the past 15+ years and what could viewed as Biblical illiteracy that sometimes accompanied that approach. I don’t want to start a debate about seeker churches, but my personal observation was that many folks, including myself, as a result flocked instead to churches that were more academic and had a more serious view of doctrine. I think as the more conservative churches were “shored up” the unfortunate result is that over time they’ve become a breeding ground for extra-Biblical, man-made systems or ideas that sound good to people with very conservative leanings, but in the end are quite dangerous and damaging.
I think the big increase in homeschooling has played a part. A lot of this garbage is peddled at conferences, instead of academics.
DH and I have been talking about the decline of America’s traditions and institutions, including essentials that are greater than America such as the church and marriage.
It seems that everywhere I’m looking or listening, people are either calling for a third Great Awakening or declaring that it has begun. I’m starting to understand that there will be some Deborahs in this era. As those chosen by God to be prepared for revival through Christian homeschooling, as those who have done the reading, praying, studying, and walking by faith through that experience, we have a role.
But what is it? If that’s the paradigm, a Great Awakening in the west, what will our part look like? It’s partly what we do in educating our children and mentoring and encouraging younger mothers, but I am now praying to hear more from the Lord about what He would have us do.
Joining apostate churches where we’re allowed a voice? Not an option. Joining patriarchal communities is also not an option.
When people of faith find it impossible to join, they must choose to leave or lead. What might those two extremes look like in our time?
I have a few ideas simmering. Does anyone else? Has the Lord been leading you to think along these lines, as well? We thought our big calling was to homeschool our children. I am wondering if that calling has been preparation for something more in God’s plan for America.
*When I say we’ve been called to homeschool, I can’t help remembering the many public school Moms I know right now who are VERY deliberately discipling their own children. My own mother did that. I’m counting any mother who sees it as her primary responsibility to actively teach her children God’s will.
Hello Amy R.
Thank you for such an interesting and uplifting comment. It has given me much food for thought.
Hello Karen
May I ask you, since I clearly do not know much *at all* about this business, what are the things we have to watch out for in abusive, heavy teachings? I now realise that I am *very* naive about the dark side of churches. (I have been treated with dignity and kindness at our church, and the husband-and-wife pastor team are so real that it has created a culture where I feel stronger and more excited about God whenever we meet together.)
If these ideas are being spread at conferences, and in books — is that where we need to be alert? And what about the way that a number of churches (of all kinds) have covered up injustice or abuse? How can I avoid being a complicit bystander?
I’m sorry if this seems sort of basic to you.
@Hoppy – I would agree. I was rather frustrated at attending my first homeschool conference at how difficult it was to find seminars that were academic based in actually helping me help my child w/ school. I didn’t want to hear someone’s philosophy on how to be the “perfect” mom, wife, teacher etc. I wanted to know how to better teach math, language, science. though I enjoyed the fellowship w/ my friends, the conference was rather disheartening to me. Now I know why I had avoided them in the 7 years I’ve been homeschooling!
fiddlrts,
Welcome! I look forward to your input here!
“I love that no matter what others say about me, even pastors, that he totally supports and loves me for who I am.”
Diane, this cracked me up because I can really relate to it! Over the years I have come to regard church hierarchy in a very different way than many do. (Jon Zens and I just talked about hierarchy in the church on the upcoming podcasts.) Even just yesterday I saw someone absolutely outraged during a debated that a pastor wasn’t given special treatment. To me, that is practicing the sin of partiality that James warns about. Philippians 2:3 admonishes us “Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.” Somehow that gets all turned upside down in our views of clergy that come out of the Roman Catholic church rather than Scripture. (Part of the Reformation was shedding light on the fact that we are ALL priests.) So, as you can imagine, there are preachers who react to this. I can think of one particular instance where a pastor was so mad at me and turned to my husband, wanting to get his agreement that I had been wrong in how I had counseled someone. I guess he thought he could divide and conquer but how foolish! Didn’t he think that we would have the same approach to counseling someone in a particular situation? Anyway, got a kick out of your comment!
“because we are running out of places to try and I won’t be silenced anymore”
Hoppy, if I had a quarter for every time I have heard that, we could all go to lunch. This is what the Barna research reflects, I believe. Add to that the mega push for men’s ministries, men’s colors in church decorating, men’s whatever and before long it will be all men….imagine the local church with no women in it!
“Thatmom, I’m wondering why you think the pendulum has swung this way?”
Three reasons I think…
First, Hoppy is correct that these nutty doctrines are coming into the church via homeschooling conferences. If anyone doesn’t grasp just how intense this is, listen to the patriarchy/patriocentricity 2 series and the segments on the 2009 homeschooling leadership conference in Indianapolis. There they lay out their agenda, which includes getting ALL homeschooling families into FIC’s and ALL daughters staying home until given in marriage. To this day I have yet to hear anyone renounce Phillips for laying out that agenda, including HSLDA who helped sponsor that conference. You look at the state groups around the country and how they have such tight control. I know some conferences where vendors have been subjected to having their materials searched over with a fine tooth comb, looking for anything that didn’t reflect their agenda. And these people are bullies!
Secondly, it is a huge reaction to the radical feminism of the 1960′s. Just yesterday I was reading a discussion on a Southern Baptist blog that talked about the “need” for them to do this. Some even admitted that there used to be more freedoms for women but that in order to keep the “liberalism” from coming into the church, they had to adopt these “complementarian” views. Get what they are saying….it isn’t necessarily Biblical, just necessary. Wow!
Thirdly, and perhaps the one thing that really gets lots of mileage, the very public gay rights agenda. When you see very popular Christian bloggers pushing for this and some calling those of us who do not agree “bigots,” you see a huge shift in the evangelical landscape that is pretty amazing. Clay and I have been reading and looking at this stuff for the past 12 or so years and have been amazed at just how fast things have shifted. Lots of fear rather than understanding and compassion combined with solid teaching on homosexuality. For example, how many realize that their over-emphasis on “manliness” actually pushes some young men into experimenting with gay lifestyles?
And one more thing that I think plays a big factor in this is that there is a big tug of war in my kid’s generation, the post-modern generation. You have those who are driven by compassion and what they perceive to be justice and they are very heavily influenced by post-modern thinking, in part, because of the educational establishment as I wrote about earlier in my response to Michelle. And reacting to that is the Young Restless Reformed crowd who is taking their cues from some people I find questionable if not a bit flaky (Piper, Driscoll, to name a couple.) They are absolutely a celebrity-driven crowd which results in a handful of people setting the agenda for lots of others.
Mix all this together and we have a pendulum swinging far down to the patrio end of the spectrum while the rest of us watch and ask “Where is organic faith in the midst of all this? Where do the one another commands fit in?”
AmyR,
“I have a few ideas simmering. Does anyone else? Has the Lord been leading you to think along these lines, as well? We thought our big calling was to homeschool our children. I am wondering if that calling has been preparation for something more in God’s plan for America. ”
Your thoughts gave me goosebumps! I have wondered the same things! Whenever I see a big attempt to silence and marginalize groups of people, I wonder what the Lord is doing. This more recent trend to silence women, especially homeschooling moms who, as you say, come to the party with a unique set of skills and especially with determination and passion. It will not be for naught! I would love to hear what you are thinking?
Anthea, so many thoughts as I read your comments.
First of all, I would suggest you get the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Jeff Van Vonderan. It is one of those resources every Christian ought to keep on the shelf for reference. If you go over to this website there is a great discussion of this book going on right now. Being aware of all those things you asked, that they even exist and what they look like, will certainly prevent many heartaches down the road plus will prepare you for ministry to others.
http://www.recoveringgrace.org
Pingback: when virile goes viral: more muddled complementarianism
I know the anguish of not finding a conservative egalitarian church. It hurts. Because of the pain of being quenched in a patriarchist system, some have turned to liberal churches where they are given more freedom. As a result, patriarchists label anyone who challenges their views as liberal, pro-lesbian, and heretical. They say, see where egalitarian views end up.
I believe we have hard choices to make, but that is part of the Christian life – persecution for the sake of godliness. God’s top priority for us is His Gospel. He has entrusted His message to the Church. We can not compromise this for more personal freedom. However, we can not keep silent over the evil of patriarchy. Either we find a conservative egalitarian church to attend if we can (good luck), stay in the patriarchist churches and speak up as we can (the truth in love) and endure the persecution, or start new churches that are egalitarian and faithful to the Gospel. Speaking up on the internet in blogs and such is also a huge help in educating others.
My desire is that more men would join the struggle on our behalf. It’s too easy to say nothing when it’s only your wife who is being quenched. Since God is full of compassion, shouldn’t our godly men be growing in this same attribute? This is true biblical manhood… defending women disciples against the harsh criticisms of even family and church leaders. This is exactly what Jesus did for Mary of Bethany against the criticism of her sister Martha, and against the criticisms of the other disciples when Mary anointed Him with expensive perfume for His burial. God incarnate said He would not allow Mary’s rights as a disciple to be taken away from her. Jesus also commanded that Mary be remembered wherever the Gospel is preached. Behold, the Man!
“My desire is that more men would join the struggle on our behalf. It’s too easy to say nothing when it’s only your wife who is being quenched. Since God is full of compassion, shouldn’t our godly men be growing in this same attribute? This is true biblical manhood… defending women disciples against the harsh criticisms of even family and church leaders. This is exactly what Jesus did for Mary of Bethany against the criticism of her sister Martha, and against the criticisms of the other disciples when Mary anointed Him with expensive perfume for His burial. God incarnate said He would not allow Mary’s rights as a disciple to be taken away from her. Jesus also commanded that Mary be remembered wherever the Gospel is preached. Behold, the Man!”
Yes, Christy, exactly! The Gospels are full of so many wonderful examples of women who are working in the kingdom with the freedom they experience in Jesus!
Some years ago I had an “aha” moment when I realized that most of my close friends were NOT homeschooling moms who fit the mold I was seeing put forth in the homeschooling media. Even though I am a homeschooling mom, I have never fit that mold. For awhile that bothered me, but then I accepted that and found freedom in working where God has placed me.
But like many, I’m an outlier in my conservative church. It’s gotten better though over time though, and I’ve seen a desire to especially involve the older women more in shepherding the flock.
I really like the use of the term “outlier” in this way. It fits!
We tried to stay in our FIC for a while. My husband did publicly speak up about how the women were silenced. It was amazing how fast some of the elders’ true bully natures were revealed. The last straw for me was when one told my husband that my stance on allowing women to speak was because I had “gone crazy” after several years of insomnia. I knew the minute my husband told me this, I would never step for in that church again, even if it was the last church in the area.
Afew weeks later, we met with this elder and his wife. My husband is very easy-going and not emotional. He was crying as he told the couple how much the statement hurt my feelings. The elder just kind of shrugged and said that well, we had hurt his feelings too, by being rude once! His “apology” didn’t show an ounce of remorse. He also wanted to “help” us find a new church to “ensure a smooth transition.” He wanted to make sure we went to a church he approved of. Yeah right!
Thanks for this link. I found the reviews at amazon.com to be as revealing as the synopsis on the recovering grace blog.
After reading the information, it reminded me of ‘heavy shepherding’, which I heard about when I was a new Christian in the 80s. But I did not have any experience of it. I think the term is still used in the UK as a synonym for spritual abuse.
I found this interesting article, which is esp useful because it gives examples from a range of denominations.
http://www.opentheword.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=670:spiritual-abuse&catid=135:hurts&Itemid=71
Karen said, “Your thoughts gave me goosebumps! I have wondered the same things! Whenever I see a big attempt to silence and marginalize groups of people, I wonder what the Lord is doing. This more recent trend to silence women, especially homeschooling moms who, as you say, come to the party with a unique set of skills and especially with determination and passion. It will not be for naught! I would love to hear what you are thinking?”
I have two eras that keep coming to mind: Dickens’ England, and America’s Civil War.
The first is represented in the headlines of the day, where we see that immorality, ignorance, and poverty are consuming the women and children of the nation. Is it not the total lack of knowledge concerning the true duty of womanhood that makes young mothers insecure and ready for the Pied Piper of patriocentricity? *Every* mother who has explained her involvement with that lifestyle to me has marked her unpreparedness for motherhood as the instigator for seeking out some expert to tell her what to do. Those of us who had the maternal role modeled for us as children often blame these women a little for not knowing better. I’m not sure we’re understanding correctly when we do that. When I talk with my neighbors and read the local headlines I see what happens to children when mothers don’t even know how ignorant they are! What results is abuse, neglect, starvation, despair, failing at school, dying from being left in hot cars while mom shops, being left to the mercy of mom’s boyfriend who abuses them, exposed early to alchol, drugs, and pornography…really, Dickens wrote about it all.
And the thing I can’t get out of my mind is that Dickens also wrote about the root causes (turning a blind eye to suffering and ignorance, an insulated church, pride) and the cure (true Christian love toward all mankind, on a very personal level). I’m reading him right now, trying to take some notes and see what applies. Simmering.
The second era I mentioned is represented in the Battle Against Women that is raging in politics and religion. Who were the women of the Civil War era who defied role assignments that disallowed following their own calling from the Lord? Elizabeth Blackwell, Louisa May Alcott, Clara Barton, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Antoinette Brown…each felt a personal calling that could not be denied, even though most were from religious backgrounds that did not encourage personal callings for women. This list is easy to obtain, BTW, because the patriarchs have already singled them out as non-normative. But the love and mercy of Jesus Christ shone through the life of Elizabeth Blackwell. I recently read an old biography of her by Dorothy Clarke, who was herself the wife of a Methodist minister. Mrs. Clarke attacked the issues of patriarchy and the priesthood of every believer, even women, with great intellect and skill. She also addressed the importance of what Dr. Blackwell found in the ivory towers of the “nice” homes: Sexual ignorance and abuse, and girls who were not near as protected as their parents fondly believed them to be, because they had no education of how their bodies worked or the rights afforded to women by God’s laws and the laws of the land. Sound familiar?
Dr. Blackwell also dealt with the problems of human trafficking, prostitution, unwanted babies, and mothers who died from lack of prenatal and postpartum medical care. Again, some patriocentric mothers and daughters of my own acquaintance are eschewing medical care and risking their lives because of ignorance and misplaced religiosity. And women in our cities are at risk of being used in the same way that “lower class” and immigrant women of Dr. Blackwell’s time were misused. I see more overlap between middle class, churchgoing young women and the girls of the streets than should be possible in a first world nation. Neither have a Savior.
Education, intellect, great compassion, and tremendous faith, to rescue both the women of the streets and the daughter in the ivory tower. The problems of our society can be blamed on ineffectual churches and wrong-headed political decisions, but however it happened these are women’s problems. We must restore True Womanhood, so the next generation of girls can know what it looks like. It has to be made manifest for those trapped in patriocentricity or cults but also for those who have never heard of Jesus but are watching us from “the world.”
That’s where I’m at right now. Realizing we’ve been here before, and trying to learn from the past.
Thanks for another good link, Anthea!
Amy, so many things running through my mind since I read this early this am.
First, do you have list of those names or would you be willing to put one together? I have already podcasted about some of these women and have been wanting to feature some more of them. I am always so sad to meet young women who have been encouraged to forgo any way of life other than something that looks like it popped out of the 1950′s. (I am currently working on a blog entry about the problems with emulating that era, other than the cute clothes and kitchen kitsch!)
You have some wonderful insights here. I am going to process them for a while. Please keep posting your thoughts and if you have a blog where you are writing about this, I want a link!!!
One thing that comes to mind is that the patriocentrists love the pre Civil War south lifestyle and have tried to put all sorts of spin on abolitionists. A while back I was looking for a college prof I had, wondering what had happened to him. Sadly, I found that he had passed away but I was excited to find that he had written all sorts of books that I am in the process of trying to get my hands on. He taught history and sociology and wrote much about the southern pastors who were opposed to slavery and what they had to endure. Anxious to see what he has to say about women abolitionists during that era.
Harriet Beecher Stowe. Florence Nightingale.
Amy, I hear you about girls being brought up in “nice” homes but inadequately parented. I saw this in some of my daughter’s classmates in middle and high school, and even college from what she told me, and read about it all the time in newspaper articles. I remember that once my daughter was on the phone with one of her friends, telling her that no, she would not be going to some party or other. The friend must have said something about me over-sheltering her, because I heard my girl say, “MY mother CARES about me!” before ending the phone conversation and walking away in a huff.
My daughter told me that one of her college friends had lost her virginity during high school to a boyfriend she didn’t much care for, because she didn’t really understand that she had the right to say “no”. There were lots of things like that that she heard, and she told me once that as near as she could tell, I was the only mother ever who talked to her daughter. But to be fair, there are kids who wouldn’t listen if their parents talked until they were blue in the face.
Julia Ward Howe.
http://www.juliawardhowe.org/bio.htm
Sojourner Truth.
http://www.sojournertruth.org/Library/Speeches/Default.htm
Scottish missionary Mary Slessor…I think she was born mid 1800s and lived until early 1900s. At 38, I had never heard of her until my daughter came home from VBS telling me about he incredible woman she had learned about that day.
By the way Karen, thank you for your most excellent thoughts about how the pendulum has swung in response to my question.
Here is the link to the podcast I did on the life of Harriet Beecher Stowe. Get your kleenex out before you listen.
http://www.thatmom.com/2007/06/30/june-29-podcast/
Thanks for all these names…keep them coming…this is awesome.
I love Uncle Tom’s Cabin. I could talk your ears off about it. It’s a profound, complex, powerful book.
Charlotte Perkins Gilman, the feminist author who wrote The Yellow Wallpaper among other things, was related to the Beechers. She definitely got their crusading spirit.
I didn’t know about CPG being related to the Beechers! I have The Yellow Wallpaper in my Norton Anthology of American Lit, and included is her explanation of why she wrote it. Fascinating.
I might be starting a blog this weekend. If I manage it I will link it here. I want to create a resource we can all contribute to and draw from, highlighting the women mentioned here and also women of today (from all around the world but especially in America) who demonstrate(d) true biblical womanhood, not merely the “pink verses” but the fruits of the Spirit…looking through the modern and post-modern eras to find Deborah, Abigail, Mary, Phoebe, Dorcas, Lois, and Eunice instead of Marthas-who-are-the-real-Marys.
Laura, I’d love to give you space to talk our ears off about Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Maybe if I can get this blog up, you can tell us about Harriet Beecher Stowe?
I will also try to come up with the requested list, Karen. Here are all the names from this thread, for your convenience:
Elizabeth Blackwell
Clara Barton
Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Antoinette Brown
Harriet Beecher Stowe
Florence Nightingale
Julia Ward Howe
Sojourner Truth
Mary Slessor
It’s a start. Maybe we can look at their lives together and begin to learn what we can do help our communities, churches, and nation to find solid footing again.
I’m also going to be spending a lot of time doing some research here —> http://www.feministsforlife.org/ I’m not a member, but as I’m reading I’m wondering why I’m not a member. Does anyone know anything about it? Are they what they seem to be, “First Wave” feminists as we used to describe that era on the True Womanhood blog, before ‘feminist’ came to mean something else entirely in the era of Betty Friedan?
Karen, I’ve been feeling the same crunch for a long time. I spent probably the first decade of my Christian life being a very, very private thinker–and a very frustrated one–because I was constantly getting the message that women shouldn’t get involved in theology or anything too public. When I started my current blog in 2009, I was at the point of wondering whether I even should post my thoughts online, or whether that was a violation regarding women teaching men.
We were never in a patriocentric church. Just conservative Baptists, which I found messy and confusing enough. But because we live in an isolated area, I got most of my sense of Christian homeschooling momhood from the internet and a couple of prominent Christian magazines: The Old Schoolhouse (supports Mike Pearl) and Homeschooling Today (formerly James and Stacy MacDonald, plenty of patriocentric content).
And I do feel it even now. It’s been incredibly liberating and affirming that several male readers have become long-term engagers and are happy to dialogue with me. Those guys have changed my life. I feel human again, being able to have normal conversations without a bunch of weirdness over who’s got the man parts and who doesn’t.
But it also gives me the willies to see Doug Wilson embraced alongside preachers I would otherwise dissociate with patriocentricity at places like Justin Taylor’s blog. I am not at all comfortable with the apparent direction of conservative Christianity on that point.
I sat down this past week to re-study some key passages and cried my eyes out over 1 Cor. 11. It shouldn’t hurt so much to read the Word of God. As I dug in I started to realize how much the passage has been twisted, but still, on many of the verses that speak directly to women, I can only hear a preacher’s voice, not God’s.
(((C.L. Dyck))) it’s hard to believe it but you are among the normal people now. Regular humans of either sex, discussing life without those funny glasses…I popped over to see your blog and it is wonderful. I’m glad you’re here, and I’ll be praying that you can hear His voice again because His voice is so beautiful. He is love. ~Amy
Thanks, Amy. Your prayers are much appreciated, as I really need to embark on a sustained and in-depth study of these things. I was raised secular feminist, so the first message I heard as a 19-year-old, new Christian was that I had better get that sinful stuff out of my system. I wish I had had the courage to be more careful about what got poured into my system in place over the intervening years. However, God is good, and the older I get the less of the “stupid” I’m willing to put up with, as a friend of mine would say it.
Re suffragist feminism versus postmodern feminism–huge difference. I have a suffragist volume from 1915 on my shelf, in which Canadian “Famous Five” activist Nellie McClung argues the case for women as persons from her Christian background as a Methodist minister’s daughter.
Mary Seacole. Nursed soldiers on both sides of the Crimean War, self-funded since the government would not accept the services of a black woman.
Susanna Wesley. It’s important to show that a homemaker who does grapple with the Word and is prayerful is essential. As a homemaker she raised Charles and John Wesley. Now THAT’S influence! Perhaps you Americans don’t realise the effect of the 18th century spiritual revival in the UK. It changed so much of our landscape — for example it led to the abolition of slavery, without a war. The industry, the music, the lifestyle, the government. All changed.
Josephine Butler
Harriet Tubman
Amy, here is an article I wrote in recognition of Sanctity of Human Life week that tells some things about the suffragettes,whom the patriocentrists abhor for helping women get the right to vote!
http://www.thatmom.com/2011/01/21/the-suffragettes-and-a-womans-right-to-choose/
I have been a member of Feminists of Life for a number of years and consider their organization to be on the cutting edge of of addressing the abortion issue in very practical ways. Financial support to them as a member contributes to their efforts to help women on college campuses who discover they are pregnant. They regularly publish magazines that are handed out at universities all over the country listing various local and national resources for pregnancy assistance, medical care, child care, etc. Because the largest demographic for abortions is young women of college age, they have found ways to offer practical counsel and in ways that are not offensive. The actress Patricia Heaton who produced the wonderful movie Amazing Grace about William Wilberforce and the slave trade (she was also Deborah on Everybody Loves Raymond) is a born-again Christian and has been the national spokesperson for FFL for years. Highly recommend them!
CL, so glad you are sharing your journey. Your testimony is one I know so many can relate to…..just look around at the women who have shared here in the past week. The stats on these articles are out the roof…this is a topic so, so many are struggling with. Thanks for being here!!!!
another thought….I find it interesting the the issues of women coincide with issues of grace based parenting vs adversarial methods. It seems that the really heavy handed approach to raising children is coming from the same camps that promote patriocentricity.
Here is one example:
There was a young women who contacted me a year or so ago and told me how much the blog and podcasts had meant to her. We eventually became friends on FB and when she started a private forum I was sent an invitation. This gal is very young and hasn’t been a Christian for very long. Her husband has only been saved for a couple years. They are a blended family with a lot of preschoolers and an older child from her first marriage who is really, really struggling on a number of levels.
I watched as various young women came in and out of the group looking for perspective on raising their little ones and this particular woman always gave really heavy-handed advice, a la Richard Fugate etc. One time a young mom asked a question about her children being extra badly behaved right before supper time when the dad first comes home from work. Right off the bat, she was told by this woman that she needed to come down hard on the kids, spank to repentance kind of advice. I was shocked….we had so few facts and not nearly enough to advise something like that. There was no attempt to find out ages, schedules, etc. I quickly found that as soon as I started asking questions and offering suggestions that were not punishment related, I was totally marginalized and written off as a “liberal feminist.” The same thing happened if I challenged any of the patrio nonsense about priest of the home type stuff. And rather than ever talking about anything, she would always change the subject. If I ever asked for Scripture to support what she was saying, she blamed me for not holding to Scripture and would rally her troops. (Insert face to palm icon here) Clay kept saying “why are you even bothering in that group?” and all I could say was that at some point this young mom had been blessed by the things I had written here about one anothering and I didn’t want to give up on her. But finally one day after way too much of this nonsense, and noticing she had gotten several well-known patriocentrists into the group, I told Clay, “Tomorrow I am going to leave the group. It is obvious that no one wants to look at Scripture or even basic child development facts. They just want to blindly follow some paradigm.” So I left the group and the next morning got a threatening note from this woman telling me I would be banned from her group if I couldn’t “hold to the Word of God” regarding child discipline and a woman’s role. It was an incredible letter.
And here is the real kicker….she recently announced that she and her husband had been accepted to go to the mission field! Here was a family that desperately needed counseling and mentoring and good solid discipleship, especially the oldest child, and they are going to some foreign country as missionaries! I will bet that because they fit the paradigm so well and have answered all the right parenting/gender questions correctly, they are assumed to be fit for this.
Here is my prediction…that oldest child will hang on until turning 18 and then will run as fast as possible away from any spiritual truth. I have seen this so many times and yet those dear children who have been physically and spiritually abused will be written off as rebellious. And this dear mom who has her hands full with small children and homeschooling and who will no doubt be pregnant many more times will do her best to perform until it all collapses because her hope is not on the Lord but on someone’s agenda. I am continuing to pray for her, that the Lord’s grace will overwhelm her at some point.
“One time a young mom asked a question about her children being extra badly behaved right before supper time when the dad first comes home from work.”
The kids are hungry and tired. Give them a mid-afternoon nap or quiet time, and a snack at 4:00. Problem solved. Good lord, why make things so hard?
I remember when my daughter would go through growth spurts and you could not keep her filled up. At the same time, skinny as a string bean. She would tell me, around 4:00, “I’m starving.” I asked myself, if I was starving at 4:00, what would I do? Well, I’d go ahead and get some dinner, wouldn’t I? Duh.
Or suppose you do spank your kids every day like clockwork and have them pouting and crying when Daddy comes in the door. What a happy, congenial scene for him every day when he is tired from work and wants to enjoy the fruit of his labors.
People amaze me.
…Amy, I’d be glad to contribute.
“And this dear mom who has her hands full with small children and homeschooling and who will no doubt be pregnant many more times will do her best to perform until it all collapses because her hope is not on the Lord but on someone’s agenda.”
This was/is me, Karen. Having 5 kids in seven years took its toll. I got severely depressed after my youngest was born and got to the point where I told my husband if I didn’t go to the doctor, I was going to leave and never come back. Fortunately, my depression was fixed but the fix came through now having to take daily vitamins for the rest of my life. I realize this is not a post really on lots of kids, but for me, one thing that brought me down and into depression was baby after baby. Now, I will need to be on vitamins for the rest of my life because so much pregnancy and nursing in such a short time greatly weakened my body and the repercussions are something I will need to deal with for the rest of my life.
Anyway, as I was crawling out from depression, had five kids aged seven and under, I became overwhelmed. I turned naturally to what anyone in the patriocentric camp had to say and I found that it didn’t help at all. It was all bubbles and sunshine if I did x, y and z. The problem was, I WAS doing x, y, and z. And instead of a happy family, I was the one wanting to leave. On top of that, I had a daughter who has been strong-willed from the moment she was conceived. She went against all the promises from the patriarchs. I spanked her, just as I did her siblings, but instead of becoming compliant, she became angrier and more rebellious. Thankfully, I never did go so far as to follow the teachings of Michael Pearl because I inherently knew it was wrong.
So now where am I? Coming out of the ruins of my former ideals, having to learn grace and to cling to Christ. And my strong-willed daughter? Still strong-willed and wears me out. I am having to refocus from leaning towards a man-made system of rules and punishments for her, but instead learning to work with her temperament and what works best with her fragile personality.
If there is anything I can say to young women who, like me, looked to patriarchy as the answer to a good life, it is this: Look to the Bible, putting aside any presuppositions. What does it REALLY say? And run. Run far away from these teachings because they are nothing but empty promises that will NEVER deliver the way Jesus and His grace does.
Oh,Kelly, I know this is a difficult season. You know, that daughter is going to grow up and be a strong a courageous woman who won’t be willing to accept any willy nilly thing that comes along! Just keep praying for her and for all your precious little ones. You are a wise mama to look for ways to meet the emotional needs of each of your children. I know I have said this many times before but nutritious meals, healthy snacks, good sleep, plenty of rest, lots of outdoor play, and simple pleasures in life will really help. And don’t blink because that is how fast it is going to go past! {{{{{}}}}}
Kelly, I think you are right to view your daughter’s strong will as being part of a fragile personality. Just read somewhere – was it here, thatmom? – about strong-willed, difficult children being less likely to fall away from their parents’ faith when they grow up, because they engage with everything, whereas the compliant children might be inclined to let everything roll off. But that engagement means that you can really hurt their feelings. Even now that my daughter is 25 I give a lot of thought to how I talk to her because I know she takes it all in. Still very stubborn.
I found it useful with my own to find a way to view her character traits as strengths and then work with her on fine-tuning them, rather than as weaknesses to be attacked. I thought, for instance, that her independent spirit would shield her from being vulnerable to peer pressure, and I was right about that; I encouraged her, in fact, to *be* the peer pressure in her group, and she stepped up. Several parents of her friends told me over the years that they appreciated my daughter’s influence on them, to be serious and steady and polite and responsible and morally upright. So you really don’t want to knock that down, even if you could.
And the difficulty fell away by the time my girl was into middle school. My husband and I treated her, (and each other,) with consideration and respect, and she responded very well to that.
“another thought…I find it interesting the the issues of women coincide with issues of grace based parenting vs adversarial methods.”
Karen, this reminds me of the little anecdote about the guy who comes home from a bad day at work and growls at his wife, who snaps at the child, who kicks the dog, who bites the cat…
“I quickly found that as soon as I started asking questions and offering suggestions that were not punishment related, I was totally marginalized and written off as a ‘liberal feminist.’”
Welcome to the Jezebel Club, eh.
Next, we feminist co-conspirators shall ply unsuspecting passersby with much wine and constant gossip, as is common with older women not of the patriarchal faith. 
I read the “when virile goes viral” post to my husband, and we both felt Wilson and McDonald’s remarks were tantamount to a public declaration of “we sexually abuse our wives and so should you.” My guy was floored at their audacity and callousness, bless his heart.
Kelly–if it helps any, I was a horrifically strong-willed (and sensitive) child. Sometimes only God knows what to do with us, but sometimes that’s all that’s needed. Don’t lay it all on yourself, my dear. There is a will and wisdom strong enough and gentle enough for such personalities, even if we tend to exasperate all human attempts.
I am so very encouraged with the comments regarding my daughter. One thing I heard from a friend, who also has a strong-willed daughter, is that her strong-will will be a fiery passion for the Lord some day. I tell myself this every single day and it is a hope for me.
On the subject of my coming away from patriocentry and learning grace, I will say this: While I regret ever believing a word coming from those who teach patriocentric views, I *do not* regret the trial, strength and faith I am *gaining* from it all. The realization that I really do have to cling to Christ becomes more apparent every day and my love for Him grows ever deeper. It is a beautiful thing to watch and experience. Physically, I am exhausted but spiritually, I am experiencing Christ!
C.L. said: “I read the “when virile goes viral” post to my husband, and we both felt Wilson and McDonald’s remarks were tantamount to a public declaration of “we sexually abuse our wives and so should you.” My guy was floored at their audacity and callousness, bless his heart.”
Didn’t you love the thought of angels watching a couple in bed? That is just plain creepy to me. As I said, its one thing in literature, another thing entirely when placed in the context of patrio marriage!