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Proverbs 27:2 — “Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.”

Proverbs 27:2 “Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A
stranger, and not your own lips.”

I’ve heard and read similar claims by Christian Home Educators of Colorado (CHEC). The movie divided implied this mindset and the extended interview clip (below) had such self-praise in spades:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopupvideo.asp?SID=1215101457390

Lindsey- We are going through the exact same thing here in Oklahoma- the big state convention is featuring Voddie Bauchum. Here is what makes me crazy- otherwise rational homeschoolers, whose kids date a bit (gasp) and whose daughters go to college (eeek!) will go to this and listen to him and come away with a warm and fuzzy feeling about the whole patriarchy branch of the homeschool community.

Where is the disconnect? We are so browbeaten about not being critical-EVER-of our “leaders”, and our “authorities”- that I think we would accept almost anything in a Christian package.

I asked for help in another post and mentioned that sometimes it is difficult to always be the Eeyore in the otherwise enthusiastic crowd. Is there a good concise article about Voddie Bauchum and associates that would give some background on him? I don’t want to demonize anyone. I just think that his crowd has some ideas that many people would not be comfortable with if they would take the time to check.

We are so careful to “vet” people who we consider our political opponents- and look for everything they ever said or did that we could find fault with- but when it comes to the people with the Christian label, good sense and discernment go out the window!

And I promise, I am really not very much like Eeyore in real life

What gets me is that, as Lindsey said, these groups will have these folks in because of their popularity, but will still disagree with them. Here is a thought; why not have someone in to present the other side of the issue, and that way, everyone will be happy? Better yet, why not hold a symposium on the Family Integrated Churches with Shawn, Karen, Voddie Baucham and Kevin Swanson? Allow both sides to be heard at these conventions, and that way, everyone is happy.

However, I know that is not going to happen. I would like to see someone from the NCFIC actually deal with my argument from pragmatics and speech acts, but I doubt it is going to happen, not only because no one knows [or cares] who I am, but because, as Shawn said once, they tend to be very careful who they respond to, and the context in which they respond to someone. While it is fine to have this forum for pastors that Shawn participated in, why not have it at these Christian home educating conferences? I mean, if you are right, why should you fear having your loyal followers exposed to criticisms of your own position? I mean, if you truly are the best there is, why should you fear criticism amongst your followers?

God Bless,
Adam

Opps, the second link (Baucham) should be:

http://christiannurture.blogspot.com/2011/09/review-of-mr-baucham-on-youth.html

Karen, I read your blog off and on. Thought you might be interested in these links. Here is a pastor who is willing to critique Voddie Baucham and the FIC movement. His name is Austin Duncan and he is one of the ministers at Grace Church in Los Angeles.
http://thecripplegate.com/voddie-baucham-and-shepherds-conference/

You can also hear his interview on the topic on the Christian Worldview radio show. It’s an hour long, but worth a listen.
http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/5242

This gal is quite a character, but I really liked her reviews of Voddie Baucham’s books:

http://www.homeschoolreviewsandmore.com/2010/07/family-driven-faith-by-voddie-bauchman.html

From cripplegate:

“But what struck me about Voddie is that after critiquing his movement for over an hour, this descendant of Anak approached me and was… complimentary. He was gracious, and we immediately made plans to have dinner together. At dinner, he kindly received my criticism of the movement in which he is a founder and a reformer. He found much of my critique of the movement to be on point, and there was plenty that we were able to disagree over. A few weeks later, he and the elders of his church (Grace Family Baptist), invited me to come deliver the same critique at a weekend conference they were hosting.”

Impressive. That has *not* been my experience with fic leaders. In fact, I was told by the homeschool (mafia) to stop writing my articles. If the various leaders did this years ago they may have been more accepted (at least tolerated) than they are now with their unbridled rhetoric.

My previous legalistic, patriarchal church had 3 of the 21 members of the NCHE board as members. Another church member was friends with a leader of NCFIC. If the rest of the board attended churches like my previous one, then they probably consider Baucham and others as almost normal and all those speakers that stick to academics as the weird ones.

Dear Susan,

It is distressing to see fellow Christians reduced to suspician. I would enourage you to seek out friendship in a good church that is open to different schooling methods while being faithful to God’s word–A chruch that focuses on God’s Gospel and the menas of spritual growth (which should not be confused with man-made rules). There are many trustworthy homeshoolers in Colorado that I can testify to. And some of them get together to help instruct their chilren through a homeschool-only once-a-week, assistence school, Credo Academy (in Lone Tree).

To all: I was reared in a legalistic environment. God has delivered me from its iron-grip but also humbled me. I pray for such leaders (who have a greater culpability before God) and pray especially for those hurt by them.

Shawn,

Now that’s a bummer. As you well know, reading a transcript of Mr. Swanson as opposed to listening to him could convey two completely different messages. Usually he says more with his tone and attitude than with actual intelligent words.

A crashed hard drive? Oh well…

Micah

I find this entry and comments very interesting. I attended my first Christian homeschool conference a month or so ago. While I enjoyed many of the messages that I received, I have been in constant thought about my experience. Would I go back next year or ever? Do I want to attend my local christian homeschooling conference or should I try to find a non-christian homeschooling conference, if one even exists?

I felt that many were judging my Christianity. No my husband did not attend, he had to work, so that we can afford for me to stay home with my son. Yes, I have one son, and am very blessed to have him. Hearing several times, put downs of only children was very upsetting to me. This is not always a choice, and even if it is why is it necessarily wrong?

My decision to homeschool is because the public schools in my area are not educating children. Yes, I want my son to know G-d, however I also want him to know how to read, write, enjoy math and science, and to understand true history. I want him to be a well rounded individual who can make it in any situation that is thrown at him in life.

As I read many Christian homeschooling blogs and magazines, I feel that because I do not believe what they believe I am wrong and less worthy. I have felt that my reason for wanting to homeschool is not as valid as others. I have felt that because my husband did not attend the conference his was not as good of a father as those fathers that attended not only the conference, but also attended the two men’s breakfasts. I have wondered why there wasn’t something special for mothers, as at least in my home, I am the one with my child 24/7, and I could really use a support group of non-judgmental caring moms or even just a pep talk.

Maybe coming from a Quaker background does not make me a Christin in the eyes of other Christians. I know that I don’t totally fit into the very liberal Quaker meetings that I have encountered on the many moves that we have made for work, and I also know that I don’t fit into the bible thumping everyone who doesn’t attend our church is going to hell church either.

Right now, I am confused about my choice to homeschool my 4 year old. Many family members are already questioning my decision. My husband is questioning my passion about it, and I dare not tell him that I am questioning it as well.

“Usually he says more with his tone and attitude than with actual intelligent words.” Yes, and Rev. Kingsbury at the symposium made that point abundantly clear.

Thank you! It’s nice for me know that I am not a lone in my thinking. I am at peace with my decision to homeschool my son and will focus on him. I will also check out the Moore books.

I must add that I really was shocked by what I witnessed at my first Christian homeschool conference experience. I am relieved to know that I am not the only one feeling that way. That Mom, you really you don’t know how much better I feel and appreciate this post. Thank you!!!

Sallie, you wrote:

“David and I have made the conscious choice not to get wrapped up in movements and causes. We’ve made the purposeful decision not to become enamored with speakers and teachers. We read widely on purpose. We want to “take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:5).

For us, that means not being Christian homeschoolers, but Christians who homeschool.”

AMEN.

Shawn,

Fundamentalism is based on a “reactionary” mentality.

Think about it. Modern Young Earth Creationism arose out of a reaction to Darwin, even though every geologist worth his salt (Christian or not) posited an old earth, BEFORE Darwin ever published his theory. It is so bad that these Patriarchy guys, who despise women in leadership roles, are actually disciples of Ellen G. White, a 7th Day Adventist, who had “visions” of a global flood that laid down the fossil record as we have it today. Even Morris and Whitcomb finally admitted that they got their stuff from Pryce who got it from White.

The real problem is idolatry. Time and again, these leaders have willingly lied to their constituents because they worship their interpretation of Scripture and the power and prestige that it brings them. What is amazing to me is that organizations like the OPC actually stand for this garbage being flown under their flag. Actually, it used to surprise me, but not any more.

Originally, the HS movement was based on providing something better, with a bit of reactionary movement thrown in. Over the past 20 years the second generation of HSer’s have started to separate the two groups. That is why you have people like me who don’t care about conventions even though I grew up being homeschooled. On the other hand, people like Swanson see conventions as a way of building their constituents and “his little slice of Christianity.” (His quote.) Reactionaries need constituents (and usually a job since they can’t thrive in the real world) and therefore, the truth is only important if it can advance your cause. (You should be intimately familiar with this, wasn’t it your church who set him up with CHEC?)

Here is just a short list of these types of shenanigans. If you aren’t aware of the lack of character amongst your own denomination’s Pastor’s then I don’t know what else can be done. IMO, the sooner the OPC dies the better. At least it will cause the Swanson’s and Schwertley’s of the world to retreat into even smaller ghettos and become more and more irrelevant. (The ever dwindling attendance at their HS conventions is proof positive that this is the future.)

http://questioninganswersingenesis.blogspot.com/

http://beyondcreationscience.com/index.php?pr=Why_Doesnt_Answers_in_Genesis_Tell_You_the_Truth

http://planetpreterist.com/news-5589.html

http://johnscorner.blogspot.com/2009/01/change-of-interpretation-on-chec.html

http://johnscorner.blogspot.com/2009/01/are-you-being-treated-like-child-who.html

I would also be happy to produce public email’s where Swanson either outright lied or purposely twisted the truth to engage in bearing false witness against someone who, at the time, Swanson considered a brother in Christ. Again, I find it hard to believe that you are unaware of Swanson’s lack of character.

I applaud your efforts to expose these guys. Perhaps you would be more effective if you worked within your own organization to show these men for what they really are? Or perhaps your own organization is part of the problem and it is time to move on?

Think about it.
Micah

Dear Micah,

If you have any belief in God the Judge to make things aright and to bring to repentance those who have wronged others, then refrain from attacking a pastor publicly–or anyone else for that matter or any organization.

Men and organizations are innocent until proven guilty by two or more witnesses within a context of authority. You are not an authority unto yourself and the opportunity to deal with these issues was lost as soon as you left that authority over the church in question. Your old church never slandered you to me nor in public.

I have differences with Rev. Swanson, even big differences on content and delivery. But he is a zealous man of God doing what he thinks is right. And he is a sinner saved by grace. And our interaction with him and others should be heavily seasoned with the salt of grace.

I would remind others that evil reports should not be propagated. And I would request he delete his postings or re-write them in a more cautious manner. As they stand they violate the Ninth Commandment.

Proverbs 29:11 “A fool vents all his feelings, But a wise man holds them back.”

for peace and good order in the church of Christ,
1 Cor. 14:33, 40

Pastor Mathis

Karen,

I’d like to thumb thru the NCHE lineup and see the percentage of slots given to patriocentrists or their very close allies — it would be pushing 40-50% I daresay

Lidsey: have you read Fox’s stuff? I do not know about him other than this review of his book:

http://www.svchapel.org/resources/book-reviews/5-church/677-family-integraded-church-by-j-mark-fox

Shawn – They homeschool relatively close to me and are affiliated with some local groups. All very, very, very patriocentrist and hugely in that realm. Mark started a whole new homeschool group in Elon, NC with the FIC model in mind. It’s all skirts, buns, and huge broods of kids type of homeschool group. Women like me would be cluck-clucked until we left the group on our own account.

If I can take things OT for a moment, I need some advice. Over a year ago, I left one of the FIC churches that one of the people Lindsey mentioned attends. We realized how much of the church’s theology was patriarchy garbage. Some of the elders were very upset with us and their true thoughts about me came out (we knew one probably only tolerated me, but another we counted as a good friend, until his true colors came out). It was rough leaving and it took us a year to find a new church. I basically stopped reading my Bible because so many verses had so much baggage that I didn’t want to remember.

Anyway, today I saw one of the women from the church at the store. Her health isn’t very good (she’s always seemed kind of depressed to me, whether that way naturally or from the lifestyle) and I live within a reasonable distance from her. I was ill for years and basically nobody from the church would come help uneless we hired their daughters. So I am tempted to offer to help her out, but at the same time, I don’t want to open old wounds. Her family didn’t personally do anything to us, although I doubt they defended us. i don’t want to hear questions about if we’ve found a new church, etc. i don’t want to talk about why we left. Should I offer help, or just stick to praying for her?

“Shawn, I am curious as to what you think about the differences between a family integrated church and churches encouraging making discipleship of their children a priority.”

The primary difference is doctrinal. The FIC church (if true to the confession they signed and the leadership’s interpretation of it) would assert that a family integrated church is the biblical norm (allowing some exceptions). By good and necessary implication (whether they know it or not) this would mean that the vast majority of churches *should* be FIC, otherwise they are violating the Biblical norm (sin!).

Secondarily, the differences would be practical. First, their programs (yes they have them too) would be greatly family-integrated. The temptation would be strong *not* to have a traditional catechism program (a time where children are taught the catechism from a church leader). (Unlike in former times) use of church leaders to instruct children or youth would be minimal. The same, ironically, would be true with non-church leaders teaching children, (contra, Tit. 2:3).

Second, and ironically, as some time develops many churches may end up doing what conservative churches already do (segregate) but on a smaller scale. This is because children and youth are at different levels of learning and need instructed geared toward them (remember, Mr. Brown even acknowledges this).

In short, the program aspect would not change in quality as much as quantity if these FIC actually follow Phillips and Brown. As Rev. Kingsbury put it at the symposium: they don’t like everyone else’s programs but their own. (That’s a trust issue).

Third, the rhetoric may either increase (beyond the shrill it is now), change topic or decrease.

If it increases, it will further harden already close-minded FIC churches and leaders. This means more isolationism between FIC and non-FIC churches. This means more splits (even one family leaving an otherwise good church over this issue is a split). If it changes topic, it will bring similar problems in a new direction. Already in the last two years “family economics” has been promoted as the logical outgrowth of their FIC convictions. This becomes yet one more issue for families to be attracted to a new brand and leave good churches. If it decreases, after some churches have more experience, then some may leave the FIC way or tone down their rhetoric and practices–a good thing.

Lastly, and most importantly, many families will be spiritually distorted. With such heavy emphasis on family overshadowing the need of the Gospel, many families will be self-satisfied with their new method. 7th Day Adventists hang out with this movement as well as Campbellites ["Our movement is very big on, what does the Bible say, so much of the FIC stuff seems to fit with that idea on the Sufficiency of Scripture, http://www.therestorationmovement.com. Why? Because the leaders emphasis a method for changing families. The Message of the Cross that offends even Christians is lost in a sea of rhetoric.

This point cannot be stressed enough. Read my symposium paper: "A 2008 Pew Research study found that 57% of self-described Evangelicals deny that Christ is the only way to heaven. Of homeschoolers, one Barna study suggests that about 'half believe salvation can be earned through good works.' Well has Hosea declared: 'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge' (4:6)."

http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/pa-410120923-3.PDF

The leaders of this movement have seriously misdiagnosed the problem. As such their solution falls woefully short of a full reformation they claim to already have. Excited people can do wonderful things but when the excitment dies down and reality hits then what? Many on your site and elsewhere have already tasted the bitter fruits of this movement--fruit that is hidden by the rhetoric of the movement that cannot abide naysayers and bad news.

[My next post will answer the other half of your question]

Hello Karen

I am so glad that I can read your blog again. Such interesting topics. This one rather alarming, though. Our tiny numbers home edding in the UK rely on our US friends for our materials and curriculum, our podcasts, our encouragement and a sense that it’s possible. Your personal testimony of home edding and coming out the other side is so much needed here.
Because we have state church school, v few see the need to home school.

This arguing and splitting in the USA has the potential to do so much harm, far beyond your borders. To quote the amateur theologian Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?” Seriously, if that soundbite still has power all these years later across the Atlantic, if we devour the latest news of your Presidential elections — won’t all this in-fighting in the homeschool community leave us dispirited over here in Europe?

These are my first thoughts. I have listened to that radio show on FIC, but am off for breakfast. Proof of US influence — we are probably having little American pancakes in stacks!

Hello Karen

Because of the time difference, I am the only one posting right now, so it looks as though I have taken over your blog! Sorry.

Did you know that Kevin Swanson has been speaking at Calvary Chapel churches in the US?
I think this is interesting. So far, pretty much all the speakers and writer who are causing concern re rigid models of child raising/ home educating/ family life have come from one sort of church. I have noticed that they are all full-on, loud and proud Calvinists. Usually, these speakers spend half their time banging on about home edding, and the other half of the time going on about how the only proper Christians like tulips!

So, now I am doubly confused. What is Mr Swanson doing consorting with West Coast hippy Calvary Chapelites? Also, if God has choses who will be saved, why do the patriocentric leaders try to control what happens to their children?

None of this makes sense to me.

From your dumb British follower..

Thanks for your reply. It may well be that the outward signs of apparent holiness are what we seek after. It may be that a woman who *looks* like a lady is a more obvious credit to the parents who raised her and the man who married her, than a woman who *looks* as if she is struggling, but has a forgiving heart and open hands. “Man looks at outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.” It’s easy to conform to other people’s ideas of holiness — which may well be correct ones — whilst leaving the internal issues unaddressed. That pesky 10th commandment — God knows when I break it, but you would never be able to see it from the outside. That’s why the links to your old articles are much needed.

I suppose that asking me to be a Visionary Woman is easier than asking me to think about what the Holy Spirit could do in my life, or what baptism means …

BTW that “Hey Girl” thing had passed me by … I followed your links to learn more about it … Is it just me, or is that actor too much like a boy to be taken seriously as a matinee idol for a 46-yr-old woman? I just want to tell him to tuck in his shirt and eat up his greens. Where are Harrison Ford/Denzel Washington when you need them?

“Shawn, I am curious as to what you think about the differences between a family integrated church and churches encouraging making discipleship of their children a priority.”

Part 2:

A church that encourages making discipleship of their children a priority can vary in many ways (as Presbyterians and Baptists can). But I think there will be much commonality in the Reformed tradition anyway:

1. Importance of Gospel preaching and Gospel unity. Gospel preaching will be the hallmark of such churches because the fundamental basis of any real discipleship (at home or in the church) is Christ and His redemption. Thus gratitude and not guilt will and should be the motivation for training children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

Now the Gospel is not applied in a vacuum. God has given us the public means of grace, preaching, sacraments and prayer, to strengthen our families. The typical marks of a church include such preaching and the means of grace and church discipline.

Gospel unity means that these churches and families will be comfortable with other like churches because what unites them is not a particular educational method (FIC or homeschooling or etc.) but the Message of sovereign redemption. They will feel comfortable pointing potential members there way.

I emphasize the Gospel because the typical Evangelical has little knowledge of it. Guilt, through legalism or lawlessness, is wide-spread. Churches should *not* assume that new homeschooling members have a good grasp of the Gospel basics (read my opening statement here.

2. High view of God’s church. By this I mean both the church organized (officers and laypeople) and the church as an organism (everyday interaction and help). This means parents would want their leadership to not only help the fathers, but the mothers and the children. God gave each other (Titus 2:3) and the pastors (Eph. 4:12ff.) to the church. This includes instruction for our children. The church should be the new society for our children to grow in. Not only pastors but other parents can and should instruct our children at different times and places. Isolationism and minimizing the teaching role of the church in favor of the family is eschewed.

3. In particular, historically, this meant that parents catechized their children in the doctrines of the church. Catechizing also occurred at school. The bible is taught and memorized. Love is practiced. Patience is required.

Such a church would be comfortable for a young or old persons. Youth with mohawks would palpably feel welcomed because families are secure in the nurture of their children.

This is a summary. I have a short essay Uniting Church and Family.

It is not a very exciting, brand-oriented approach because it is a simple Biblical approach.

I recall a few years back, my husband and I attended a homeschool convention and Doug Phillips was a speaker. We sat. We listened. I looked at my husband and whispered in his ear that I really did not like what this guy was saying. I felt it was rude to get up and leave…. but get up and walk out (quietly… not disruptive or making a scene) was what we did! It just “felt” yucky to hear him and I recall wondering if the whole lot of those people in that large auditorium believed what this fella was saying.

I know that I do not fit into any certain “mold” or “model” for how to homeschool. I am really OK with that! Took me awhile, but my sweet, encouraging, fun and loving hubby really is a team cheerleader and support.

I’ve always worked part time and enjoy it. Is that bad? No. Is that wrong? No. Am I less than “perfect”? Absolutely! I enjoy being a nurse and enjoy my work. It’s not easy but I happen to be blessed with an awesome set of nurse managers who are also encouraging and help me maintain flexibility. God IS IN the details!

So the controversy begins again! I haven’t attended a conference since 2010, when my friend and I were rudely prevented from blogging while sitting in the conference hall (confronted publicly by two group board members.) Over 3 years I wrote many posts about the patrio’s here and my experiences with them (5 Kids and a Dog- Hi Karen!) I actually considered going to the conference this year. Considered, but didn’t go. As it is I’m still being “stalked” so to speak by a board member who checks up on me to see if I’m writing anything about the local group, or about the patrio’s in general. The loyalty here is fierce, the defense is quick, and there is no Grace for anyone who doesn’t like what the group has morphed into. Sick and sad and I just don’t have time for it any more. I attend online “conventions” like the Heart of the Matter one, which I love, and connect online and through a local co-op that isn’t affiliated with the big local homeschool group. And my husband? He’d rather be shot in the foot than attend ANY homeschool conference, so no worries there! Karen, I love that you continue to address this issue. It is only getting worse, here and everywhere else too, it seems! God bless!