In the past few months since Hillary McFarland’s book Quivering Daughters: Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy was published, there has been surprisingly little discussion in the blog world or on websites where the patriocentrists typically gather. Early on, Stacy McDonald posted her nonreview of a book she hadn’t yet read. Following Stacy’s leadership, Kevin Swanson recorded a podcast renouncing the book which he obviously had not read either, making ridiculous charges such as “Hillary hates capitalism” and other such typical Swanson goofiness. I have been waiting for a serious review of this book from a patriarch wife and it looks like I needn’t wait any longer. In fact, not only is there a complete, not to mention extremely wordy and caustic review by Stacy McDonald, but there is also an entire website now given to refuting Hillary’s book! And not only can you read the opinions of Stacy at this site but also those of a few die hard patriarch wife friends, too.
However, the most interesting and telling response to Hillary from this camp is the survey that McDonald has sent out, as I understand it, to women who have left their patriocentric homes. A copy was sent to me by one of these women and I find it fascinating. It is unclear to me who actually received these, how they were targeted, when they were mailed out, and for what purpose. Take a look:
Dear _____,
I am sending this letter to you because I am aware of your transition away from home. I do not know any of the details of why you left home, and I certainly do not presume to know anything about you or your family, or who was “more” at fault.
It is my sincere hope that by interviewing you, and other young women in your situation, we the Christian homeschooling community can begin to understand and deal with some of the real issues in our midst. In addition, perhaps we can be a bridge in the process of reconciliation.
If you are willing to answer the following questions, but you would prefer to remain anonymous, your name will be kept completely confidential. If you would rather be interviewed by phone, please reply with a phone number and the best time to talk. Thank you so much for considering my request.
1. How old are you and how long have you been living away from your family?
2. What were the circumstances of your departure?
3. Are you married? Did your parents approve of your marriage?
4. Do you have any significant, unresolved conflicts with your parents? Are you on speaking terms?
5. Do you have any children? If so, what are their ages?
6. What kind of church did you attend growing up? Was your church part of a denomination? If so, which one?
7. Would you say that your father was accountable to the authority of the local church?
8. Was your family involved in the community life of your church?
9. Would you say your mother or your father was the stronger leader in your home?
10. How many children were in your family? What number are you in age order?
11. Were you and your siblings required to help with chores? How do you feel this helped or harmed your work ethic?
12. Would you say that either of your parents was abusive? If so, how?
13. In what ways did your parents show you affection?
14. When you were upset, how did you share your feelings with your parents?
15. In what ways (if any) do you disagree theologically with your parents? When did this begin?
16. In what ways (if any) did you disagree with the lifestyle your parents lived? When did this begin?
17. Did you have a mentor or friend who helped you find a new place to live?
18. What type of church do you now attend? How is it different from the church you attended with your family?
19. Are you under any sort of official church discipline?
20. In your mind, what would it take to reconcile with your parents?
21. What are you willing to do to reconcile with your parents?
22. Did your family have close friendships outside of the family?
23. Did you parents/church teach you that salvation is in faith in Christ alone?
24. Did your family laugh and enjoy being together?
25. Have you ever read Quivering Daughters? If so, what did you think of it?
By His Grace,
Stacy McDonald
It never ceases to amaze me how truly small this woman’s world must be and the lengths she will go to to prop up her paradigm, not to mention her book sales. Which brings me to another thought I had about her book review. She had no qualms whatsoever in interviewing Hillary’s sister and then putting the young woman’s thoughts on her new blog and also on a book review for Amazon without first consulting Hillary or allowing her to respond to the girl’s charges. And by the way, this is the same woman who has demanded, under threat of a lawsuit, that comments about the personal lives of her own family as related to her parenting philosophy be removed from my blog. I am truly in awe.
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Wow. That survey seems to be making the rounds……
But after her under-handed response to Hillary’s blog and testimony, I wouldn’t trust any personal information with that woman. She’d probably twist it to say whatever she wants.
“It is my sincere hope that by interviewing you, and other young women in your situation, we the Christian homeschooling community can begin to understand and deal with some of the real issues in our midst. In addition, perhaps we can be a bridge in the process of reconciliation.”
Some of us have been dealing with the “real issues” for several years by bringing light to aberrant teachings that are causing the problems. Until the patriocentrists are willing to acknowledge their false teachings and the fruits of them, reconciliation cannot occur. Repentance ALWAYS preceeds reconciliation.
Darcy, can you share when and where you first saw the survey? It came to me last night.
Wow! I am truly speechless. If I were to receive one of these “surveys” in the mail, I would return it to Stacy McDonald in itty bitty little pieces in a nice big envelope. Enclosed she would also find a note stating that my family matters were my own personal business and that she is not welcome in the reconciliation process.
Where is this woman coming from? A foreign planet?
Karen, you were the one who brought this movement to my attention years ago. I am so thankful that I listened to what you said, took it to heart, and researched the patriocentric movement for myself.
The very fact that this woman is threatening you with a lawsuit is very telling. If you were publishing outright fallacies, that would be one thing; however, you are merely giving the facts. She cannot argue with facts.
Amazing. Truly amazing! It is people like this that give the homeschooling community a black mark and leave a bad taste in the mouths of many.
I’m surprised she reviewed it at all. Ignoring things is such a well-worn way to make them just “go away,” after all! [sarcasm intended]
For the record, it was shown to me by another girl who received it. It’s obviously been passed around….
Wow! This is amazing! Personally, Karen, I think if she wants to sue you, let her go for it. Perhaps that will bring the truth to light. Although, I do recognize that there are inherent risks with that. I guess, what I am saying is to pray and seek the Lord about it before you back down. He just may want you to engage in this and trust Him in the battle. I don’t know. I am no prophet and it is certainly easier for me to suggest what to do seeing as how it does not affect me.
I’m pretty sure that this survey was sent out ONLY to provide fodder for this new website. Damage assessment, merely to find out where she needed to strike. Stacy doesn’t exactly operate honestly, and masking what amounts to a witch hunt behind Christianese and “reconciliation” is repulsive.
”Would you say that either of your parents was abusive? If so, how?”
Hmm. I wonder if she was planning on writing back to the people stating their ‘how’s’ are subjective, and they just don’t like authority.
That is how she handled Hillary’s book review.
I have to wonder if this poor women realizes her ‘agenda’ is sticking out like a sore thumb.
You are so right, Karen. Repentance ALWAYS preceeds reconciliation. Of course, McDonald and her cohorts think that the repentance should ONLY come from the children that left, as the system isn’t what fails, but the people IN the system that fail and those don’t includes the parents because they’re the ones that are right (according to the system).
What the heck does that last question have to do with the rest of her interview (interrogation under the guise of trying to help with the reconciliation process)? It is SO clear what her agenda is in all of this.
Any type of reconciliation that patriocentrics would want to help in would only benefit themselves and the system.
I read the McDonald review and have to honestly say that it didn’t seem caustic at all. For someone who herself is apparently being personally attacked with such vitriol, I found it especially gracious and balanced. And I’m not into patriocentricty–I agree totally that a ‘father-ruled’ home (as a father submits to CHRIST’S rule) is a far cry from a ‘father-centered’ home (where an ego-driven dad tries to take God’s glory for himself, whether with an authoritarian hand or a passive or utterly neglectful one).
I hope this comes across graciously, because I don’t mean it to sound challenging/confrontational. I don’t consider myself a “patriocentrist” by any means and am creeped out by the logical conclusions of that extreme philosophy. However, I am all for submitting to God’s authority/accountability structure within marriage. I don’t know if that qualifies me as a “patriarchist” because in saying I am all for that biblical model, I am NOT saying it’s “all about dad”–I am saying it is all about CHRIST! When I read the scriptures my husband is commanded to submit to Christ’s headship; I am commanded as a wife to submit to and respect my husband’s headship (and Christ’s, ultimately), and children are commanded to obey and honor us (even when we, as sinners ourselves, mess up–or simply make decisions that don’t please everyone in the family).
I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t afraid of the replies I’ll get here to making that statement. But I don’t know what other conclusion one can draw from an honest reading of Scripture. I sense, though–and SINCERELY HOPE!! I’m wrong–that people are lumping my belief in with the twisted idea that “it’s all about dad”.
The blessing to me is the vast leeway God leaves us within the biblical framework described above–He doesn’t spell out a cookie-cutter family life/structure (which many churches from a variety of theological standpoints try to do, even without meaning to). I love the freedom we have in Christ!! Even more beautiful to me is the fact that I find as I practice the fruits of the Spirit, the “one-anothers” and so forth, that operating with God-given freedom within this framework comes so NATURALLY. The same is true of my working relationships, church relationships, and ongoing ‘adult’ relationships with my own parents. It all comes down to MY heart and whom I am trying to glorify. There is no room for bitterness there, even though I can always find things to be disappointed about.
I guess I am a little confused because I haven’t heard much talk about it: do you differentiate between a father-ruled (under Christ’s rule) family and father-centered family? What words do you have for women who fight for their “right” to go beyond sharing opinions and working WITH their husband to disrespecting and acting against their husbands when they simply disagree with him (on clear non-sin issues)?
Isn’t this the same woman who has the tome of questions intended for any possible suitor for her daughters? What is up with the lists of really personal questions for their family to judge a person by?? Seriously?
jen…I’d encourage you to reconsider exactly what Stacy considers “biblical” patriarchy. Her true idea of father-rule includes ADULT daughters living in obedience and submission to parents, ADULT daughters having to adopt the father’s “vision” for the family as their own. She also likely believes that God won’t speak anything to a daughter that He doesn’t confirm through her father first – i.e., her earthly father, in application, replaces Christ as her conduit to her Heavenly Father.
Stacy’s good at deception and diversion on the topic. She dresses it all up with misdirection and Christianese.
“Biblical womanhood,” strictly speaking, must include the idea of not being “gossips and busybodies” (1 Timothy 5:3, Titus 2:3), which means not making people’s family relationships public or prying into strangers’ personal business.
To someone from a non-patrio background who believes that leaving home is just another part of growing up, the “survey” sounds a lot like this: “How long have you been wearing shoes? Did your parents teach you that wearing shoes was normal? Did you ever resist the idea of wearing shoes? Did you ever visit a shoe store and talk to a persuasive salesman? Has going without shoes ever hurt your feet, I mean really?” Smarmy, much?
On the plus side, I’m a believer that any (well, most) publicity is good publicity, so many thanks to Stacy for continuing to raise awareness of Hillary’s excellent book among people in your movement. May many more daughters rebel against your “recommendation,” read it, and find Jesus in its pages.
Jen: Consider the review against this quote which is prominently featured on Hillary’s website and book: “It is a grave disservice to the heart, soul, body and spirit of a woman when she is given the subtle message that the truth of her own pain is not as important as the reputation of the ones who inflict it.” That’s the problem in a nutshell.
My question at the end of my comment wasn’t meant to imply I know everything about Stacy or what she personally believes, or that I’m even pitting her beliefs against anyone else’s; in fact, it had nothing whatsoever to do with Stacy, or Hillary, or any particular person. Rather, I truly want to know what people who are very vocal against patriocentricity (which, as defined as I did in my earlier comment, I am heartily against!) believe specifically in regards to the Scriptures that specify commands to husbands, wives, and children. I’m not defending Stacey–I don’t even know her, I’ve only read one review which simply didn’t sound as mean-spirited as seemed to be alleged.
Again, Stacy and Hillary aside, I want to know what Karen and others think about the Scriptures which command husbands to love their wives, wives to submit to and respect their husbands, and children (who are living at home and thus under their parents authority, whatever age) are to honor and obey their parents. I’m not suggesting Karen and others DON’T believe these Scriptures to be valid, but I feel confused of late by the very strong emotions and personal attacks that are flying from all sides and I just want to know what people think about the Word, which is both pretty clear, but which also leaves such great room for freedom and grace. I’m not out to catch anyone with their words, just know where people stand on these Scriptures.
In regards to adult children, I believe that they are more than free to leave home and support themselves whenever they want, but that if they choose to stay home and under their parents’ support, they are placing themselves under their authority and should honor it.
“In regards to adult children, I believe that they are more than free to leave home and support themselves whenever they want, but that if they choose to stay home and under their parents’ support, they are placing themselves under their authority and should honor it.”
You probably won’t find a significant amount of argument from anyone here.
This is not what Stacy believes or promotes, however. According to Stacy, a grown woman, if unmarried, must stay under the authority and “protection” of her father, allow her father to “guard her heart”, and allow her parents to oversee/officiate her life decisions. This is their “biblical” duty as parents. I can’t find any of that in the bible, but the word “biblical” gives it more coercive power with her followers.
Regarding the scriptures, I don’t argue with them as long as they aren’t read rigidly, which they can easily be regarding gender issues and headship. The culture of the original audience has to be factored in, as well as other scriptures that speak to the issues. I have no problem, whatsoever, with male leadership within the home. I think it’s also important that we dig deep to see what they actually say (studying the original Hebrew and Greek as much as possible), always willing to compare it with what we’ve always been taught they say, rejecting the bad and holding to the good, compromising nothing in seeking the truth of the scriptures.
Jen, those are the exact question I set out to answer about 2 years ago. I was under the impression that the Bible was “very clear” about men’s and women’s roles, submission, women not speaking in church, etc. After two years of honest searching, I’ve discovered that what seemed “so clear” wasn’t really clear after all. I used to think that Egalitarians were “throwing out the Bible” in order to believe what they did. Now I know that they are doing the exact opposite: they very much use scripture to back up their beliefs. I’m not entirely sure where I fall right now, but I do know this: when I stopped worrying about what my role was and who had authority over whom, and started practicing all the “one-another” verses in the Bible toward my husband, the issue of authority, submission and women’s roles ceased to be an issue. And our marriage blossomed as never before.
There are so many valuable studies out there that I’m not going to repeat them. But here’s a few links to help you understand where some of us are coming from regarding this issue:
http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/10/05/nlq-faq-quiverfull-and-the-bible/#more-1811 (Not specifically about marriage, but sets the foundation for the other articles regarding Bible interpretation)
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/08/19/nlq-faq-the-bible-and-the-nature-of-woman/
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/10/11/nlq-faq-the-bible-and-male-headship-part-1/
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/10/13/nlq-faq-the-bible-and-male-headship-part-2/
These are a good starting point, simple and easy to read.
Also, the scriptures don’t require a grown child, regardless of circumstance, to remain under the authority of parents. Numbers 30 would be a good example of this when it speaks to a girl in her youth. Her youth was considered to end at age 12 in Jewish society, and despite living under her father’s roof, he no longer had any authority over her decisions.
http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/numbers/gill/numbers30.htm
Also, the scriptures in the NT which instruct children to obey parents are translated from the Greek “teknon” (a word often associated with “talitha”), which means little child.
While I agree that an adult child, living at home and being supported by parents, needs to abide by the house rules or move out, it’s not a biblical instruction as much as a societal/culturally accepted decency…but even then, a parent steps beyond their bounds in officiating life decisions of the child that don’t affect the parent.
Speechless,sad and ready to speak out!
Darcy I was going to link to those websites too!
Jen – I am another who entered marriage with the ideas of Passionate Housewives and Created to be His Helpmeet fixed firmly in mind. I laugh when I see women over-spiritualizing how they “ask their husbands what they can do for him” as if it is some special, godly thing they are doing!
My husband and I (as Darcy said) practice the reciprocal “one anothers” in the new testament (it’s used over 50 times!) as brothers and sisters in the body of Christ and as part of simply living out Christ’s love I find myself naturally submitting to my husband – including doing things like asking him what I can do for him every day. We are both learning more humility and servanthood now than when I was making what is just part of living in the Body into a sacred calling.
Karen, it strikes me how there are no right answers to many of these questions. No matter what you answer it can be easily twisted. For example, 14. When you were upset, how did you share your feelings with your parents?
If you answer “Well, I was upset so I would usually cry or yell” you would be “in rebellion.” If you answer “I didn’t share my feelings because I was scared of the repercussions” then she could say “See? Children don’t tell their parents their feelings then nothing can change! Now they better not complain….” I can’t really imagine what the right answer would be, except “I calmly and sweetly made an appeal to my authorities and then submitted to what they thought was right.” Gag me.
And the church discipline one? Really? She makes no effort to ask about the state of your church, if it’s overly authoritarian or if it has also spiritually abused you.
And age order… oh the age order thing. Bothers me to no end the assumptions people make about that.
I think Stacy is going to find that she has gone just a little too far.
Those of us who have been hurt, have been abused and are healing are becoming strong enough to stand up and speak out for those who aren’t yet able. And we will stand up. Grace is too great a thing not to share.
The more I read this the more frustrated I get! Every question is set up to support the “formula” and put down individual experiences! If your experience includes just one wrong answer then those of us who have been through this know that you will get “Well, see, you didn’t do it right. See, you left home without permission from proper authorities. See, you have conflicts. Why don’t YOU just resolve them or forgive and forget? Oh, see, THAT denomination is ______. Well, your father had no accountability to the local church. You weren’t involved. Your family didn’t have enough children/you feel this way because you are a strong-willed oldest child/spoiled youngest/whatever. Oh, they were abusive THAT way, well that isn’t really abuse because they weren’t raping you. See, your disagreements began when you were supposed to be under authority, that shows a rebellious heart…”
And on and on and on and on.
You’re right, Rachel. The whole interview is in support of the formula, the system. It’s not to help benefit anyone BUT system. It’s just a way to perpetuate the belief that the system doesn’t fail. YOU fail the system. She’s a sneaky one, that Stacy.
Hi Jen,
I want to give you a more complete answer about what I believe about the relationship between men and women but I am a going a little crazy in retreat prep today. Let me just make a few quick comments…
First, I think to fully understand how men and women are to relate to each other, it is important to understand the meaning of the word “ezer” which has been translated “help” in the English. Those who continually talk about women’s “roles” have totally missed the fullness and richness of the concept. In most uses of the word in the OT, it describes God as our defender and has a warlike implication. I believe it tells us that women are to be engaged in spiritual warfare alongside men as co-laborer in the kingdom. How that is worked out in practical terms, I believe, can be as different as the people involved. I love the way Carolyn Custis James describes it: “the blessed alliance.” What a beautiful description.
I agree with Lewis; there is no problem with men leading their families. When that turns into dictating details to wives and children, it is out of control. I had to laugh the other day. We were watching an old black and white Sci-Fi movie with 9′ ants crawling in and out of a huge ant hill. Scientists came and determined they were going to have to go down inside it to destroy the egg sacks and, of course, it was a scary proposition. The next day I happened to see where some man made a comment on a friend’s Facebook about her new hair color and said that as long as her husband gave her permission to have it that color, it was OK. And he was serious. My husband said he would rather crawl down inside that ant hill. This may seem like a funny exaggerated example but, believe me, it isn’t in these camps. I have read some of the most inane thoughts from women who think “submission” is something much bigger than described in Scripture. Yes, I absolutely believe that husbands are to love their wives and that wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Scripture teaches us so. It also says that we are to submit to one another and to love one another. As brothers and sisters in Christ, which is what believing husbands and wives are for eternity, we are commanded to do so, along with all the other one anothers of Scripture.
I loved this phrase from Darcy, which basically sums up where I am on this issue: “I’m not entirely sure where I fall right now, but I do know this: when I stopped worrying about what my role was and who had authority over whom, and started practicing all the “one-another” verses in the Bible toward my husband, the issue of authority, submission and women’s roles ceased to be an issue. And our marriage blossomed as never before.” I could have written this myself. I believe that as we all practice the one anothers in Scripture, the role-playing isn’t necessary.
Oh,and, yes, I believe that children are under the authority of their parents in the home. However, in healthy homes were each are learning to serve one another and all serve the Lord, it is rarely an issue. If an older child who could be living on his own lives in the home, I believe there ought to be house rules established so everyone is on the same page. The amount of freedom a child has increases year by year until adulthood but if there are adult children in the home, it becomes an issue of common respect. For example, if the adult child wants to watch R-rated movies that the parents don’t want in their home because of younger children or whatever, the adult child should respect those wishes. Should it become something that causes parents to draw a line in the sand? I don’t know. Not sure what I would do about that. The problems occur when adult children are treated as though they are in middle school. And this is what I think is happening in way too many homes. Secondary lifestyle issues become major doctrinal issues and for what reason? It is absurd.
If you haven’t yet listened to the most recent podcast series on patriocentricity, I would encourage you to do so. I address many of these issues and give examples and quotes from the patriocentrists themselves. I think it will help you understand where I was coming from in this post and my reaction to Stacy’s book review.
Jen,thanks for asking so graciously…this is one of those issues that can quickly divide people and I always appreciate the kindness you all show me as I am working out my faith “in fear and in trembling.”
Rachel, you brought up one of the central problems in this whole discussion re” the survey: church discipline. The churches where the patriocentrists attend and worship have a very top-down authority structure that invites abuse at all ages and in all relationships. That was my first response when Stacy first did her review of Hillary’s book, the one she did before she read the book. I asked “what constitutes rebellion” and I think that question is where we have to start. And what constitutes “bitterness” and can anyone measure that besides the person who is charged with that? For example, am I bitter if I make a choice not to be involved with a group of people I believe are toxic because of past behaviors? Am I bitter because I have observed a pattern of behavior over the years, a pattern that is consistent with someone’s theology, and determine that I not only don’t want to be involved with it but I want to warn others that it is poisonous and want to help others get out from under it? Am I bitter or am I discerning and bold?
Karen, not only the idea of what constitutes rebellion and bitterness, but the question what are we willing to sacrifice to avoid ever having a hint of that in our lives? Should we censor the truth to our children, out of fear they may “take advantage” of the wideness of God’s grace? That is more than God does to us! He doesn’t tame down the audacity of His grace, nor does he attempt to control our actions or keep us from rebelling against Him.
I just finished the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and the last two chapters speak to what you said very well – the “am I bitter or am I discerning and bold?”
Well, since Stacy has claimed and written in detail about her first husband’s alleged abuse and she has also claimed and written about James’ first wife’s alleged adulterous ways, then I think it would only be right to contact both of their ex-spouses, interview them and publish what they say for all the world to say.
But, then again, Stacy hired lawyers and launched a ridiculous lawsuit in order to shut down anyone who would dare do the same things she did to Hillary. Why is it Stacy and James can claim that they were abused by their ex-spouses and parents and write tawdry details about these people who are not able to defend themselves but no one else can?
Also, the lawsuit she launched was because her “business” was being threatened and she had experienced loss of income (her claim, btw) because of people REVIEWING her writings and claims. But, the people she launched the lawsuit at made absolutely NO money from their reviews and online discussions.
Hillary, an author, just like Stacy has more of a reason to go after Stacy since they are both authors.
Oh, and don’t let the McDonald’s claims that they have a ministry pass through your B.S. detector undetected. The lawsuit was clear that it was a BUSINESS they were running and that people online were costing them loss of income for their BUSINESS which included being canned from speaking engagements.
The McDonalds are the biggest hypocrites I have ever run into.
I would also like to know if James’ claims about being raised in the circus and in dirty hotels where he had to play with filthy stuffed animals are true. He also wrote about how his father left him no inheritance because he squandered his money on things he liked- model scale trains.
Shame on Stacy for rebuking Hillary for writing dishonorable things about her parents when they are guilty of MUCH WORSE!!!!
“4. Do you have any significant, unresolved conflicts with your parents? Are you on speaking terms?”
Ahhh….This is rich, especially if you consider the fact that Stacy’s four step-children do not speak to their mother who raised them until they were in their early teens and that one of these daughters wrote very hateful, snotty things on her mother’s blog not too long ago.
Yes, her step-daughters do have significant, unresolved conflicts with their mother and they (to my knowledge) are not on speaking terms with their own mother.
And I would like to know how Stacy and James fostered respect for the woman who gave birth to those children and cared for them, even though she may have been imperfect or did they foster hatred and disdain for her and tell them all sorts of cruel and distorted lies about their own mother which, in turn, caused those children to hate and dishonor their own mother.
“7. Would you say that your father was accountable to the authority of the local church?”
Well, James’ daughters would have to answer that he is NOT accountable to the local church and he had to form his very own denomination so he wouldn’t have to be accountable to his own local church.
“13. In what ways did your parents show you affection?”
The video from Voddie Baucham on daughters sitting on father’s laps in order to fulfill some God-given need in he father for attention from young women comes to mind…..
Wow. The developments in this ongoing saga just never cease to amaze me.
When I read the list of questions I had the same thought as Rachel. There is no way to answer these questions “correctly” if you left home. No matter what you say, it will be your fault that things failed. As was already said, the system never fails. It is always the person who did not live up to the needed level of perfection.
Like others already mentioned, I don’t know where I fall in the labeling of myself. I cannot call myself a complementarian, but I cannot fully embrace labeling myself an egalitarian. I’m currently doing a series regarding these issues if anyone would find it helpful. It is called Exploring a Woman’s Freedom in Christ. I’m looking at some of the different issues related to the complementarian position that I find troubling or cause me to have serious doubts about it. Feel free to stop by and read and/or leave a comment.
I just re-read the questions and something jumped out at me. The survey never asks if the daughter is happy in her new life.
The underlying assumption would seem to be that there is a problem and if we could only find that unresolved conflict or situation, then everything could be made right and the daughter could be brought back into the patriocentric fold.
Er.. why not just have a more open-ended enquiry and ask:”Share with me/us what you experienced and what you learned?” That would come across as truly listening, rather than the list of questions, which is just like an episode of The Sweeney. (Like Starskey and Hutch, only much funnier and much rougher. Go on, Google it, I dare you.)
These are all very good observations. I subscribed to Stacy’s blog simply because I am curious as to how she is going to play this out. I am also going to watch Baucham’s “Biblical Womanhood” as I keep hearing very disturbing things about it.
I just read the introduction to Jasmine Baucham’s book that was released a couple weeks ago. The book is entitled Joyfully At Home and is published by Vision Forum. Here is a link to the Introduction that is online:
http://media.visionforum.com/products/images/extra/38482/Joyfully_at_Home_Intro.pdf
I found it interesting that her parents had picked up a copy of So Much More by the Botkins and had forbidden her to read any other book (near torture for a girl who was used to reading 2 books a week) until she had read their book on unmarried women staying at home. The message they sent to Jasmine and that, if you read Voddie’s writings, was that there is only one acceptable way for a young woman to live biblically.
This is the heart of the problem with Stacy thinking she will be the one who will bring reconciliation to broken families of patriarchy. In this paradigm, there IS only one way of life for unmarried daughters. Rather than having an honest and logical discussion on this thesis that is at the heart of this movement, these leaders use every opportunity to discredit alternative views of Scripture. As we look at Stacy’s response to Hillary’s book, first and foremost we must remember that to these people, their teachings are presuppositional. They don’t have to discuss or debate these things because they have already determined what is truth and what is not.
This is one of the reasons that Quivering Daughters is so powerful. It cuts through the rhetoric. And the reason that Stacy appear to be so heartless is that, in her mind, the consequences Hillary writes about are merely a sign of rebellion to those things that are presuppositional. Her doctrine demands that she respond the way she is responding. Again, it is the paradigm itself that is the abuse and until she can get that, she is impotent at bringing any reconciliation anywhere.
Sallie, whatever we might perceive to be happiness is irrelevant to these people. If you ever read Passionate Housewives, it quickly becomes apparent that there is only one role for women (being just like Stacy and Jennie) and that is where you are to find happiness. If you are miserable or even in need of a nap, you just aren’t spiritual enough. Real human needs or even the beautiful gifts from the hand of God that don’t fit into their dominion agenda are ignored at best or don’t exist in their minds. This applies to grown-ups and to little children as well.
The latest article on the steadfast daughters blog has some anonymous woman named Abigail talking about the story Hillary told of writing a poem for her parents and being so dismissed by them. The author of the piece has no compassion whatsoever toward the pain that Hillary experienced and no sense of how symbolic that story is at it relates to patriocentricity. Children whose gifts and longings are dismissed grow up to be adults who are hesitant to ever feel acceptance or approval from others. Without the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives, how quickly we can turn around and do the same things to our own precious children. But none of that is addressed. Those God-given needs are dismissed and called “sin.”
A few months ago, Stacy placed this video clip on her blog to explain her views of counseling. Explains everything as far as I am concerned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1g3ENYxg9k
I have been thinking of a way of bringing home the feelings and needs of daughters from the patriocentric movement in a way that perhaps Stacy can relate to. Here is my stab at it off the top of my head.
We all know that Stacy’s pet issue is modesty in dress. In fact, it is a central theme in her writings, believing that immodesty contributes to rampant unfaithfulness in husbands in heart if not in deed.
Now lets say that a husband looks at pornography which causes his wife to become jealous and insecure. Is her insecurity and jealousy a sin? Should we all point out that she needs to just “stop it?”
Here is the steadfast daughter writer’s response to Hillary’s story about the poem:
“While there’s not much a parent can do about silent tears in the middle of the night, the wise parent who sees a child in this state will feel genuine sympathy for the young sufferer. Perhaps the best parental treatment for a sinful, inordinate desire for approval is a loving hug together with a gentle, loving rebuke.
While parents ought to faithfully and truthfully encourage their children, it is sinful for a person of any age to so desire a compliment that it becomes impossible to remain content without one. When we see this sin in ourselves, we must repent and turn our hearts toward Christ, finding our happiness in Him. When we see this sin in our children, we must urge them to do the same.
Hillary says that calling this “sin” and lovingly urging repentance to young people in this state is “to trample Christ,” but God’s Word on contentment clearly teaches otherwise. For the sake of Christ, we Christians are to be content with weaknesses, hardships, persecutions, and calamities, let alone a scarcity of compliments in the middle of the night. Disappointment is real, but it really calls for a holy response. When we bring forth sin instead, we must repent, for we are the people (Acts 16:25) who are called to sing hymns in prisons!
It appears that this episode occurred well over a decade ago, but the cure is the same today as it ever has been: “The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe.” The desire for approval, the desire for perfection runs deeply in humans, but we tend to look for it in all the wrong places, among sinful humans on a fallen planet. God gives us sinful, weak, imperfect parents for His own glory, and He calls us to be content with whatever history and parents He’s given to us. Our parents’ weaknesses and sins are an opportunity to prove our faith by exercising forbearance, forgiveness, and loving discretion.”
Now lets apply this to a wife whose husband is taken with porn, leaving her feeling worthless, insecure, and jealous. Should we just tell that, yes, her husband should be giving that attention to her instead and that he is wrong but she should be content with whatever history and husband God has given to her? That the husband’s weaknesses and sins are an opportunity to prove our faith by exercising forbearance,forgiveness,and loving discretion?”
Somehow I doubt that would be the response.
I have been listening to Karen/thatmom’s podcasts on organic gardening as a metaphor for parenting. They are excellent, clearly the product of careful thought and prductive reflection on her years of mothering. Any new readers of this blog would really benefit to listening to them, too. In fact, the lady who responded so harshly to Hillary’s anecdote about the poem would also benefit from Karen’s second and third podcasts in the series.
Interesting that Jasmine B. had to read So Much More before she read other books. My parents would do that to me too. Not just with books – when I was 13 I *had* to attend a Bill Gothard conference before I could attend my denominational youth retreat.
If she wanted to help reconcile these girls and families, she just failed. In one fell swoop, she has alienated every girl who has left a patriarchal home. They will never trust her or go to her for advice. They will only recoil from her words and her obvious heart toward them as “rebellious sinners”. Her blog is only days old but it has already failed the purpose for which she claims it was created. If anything, it will probably drive more girls into the grace and love of QD, and the heart of goodness and truth in Hillary’s ministry.
I would just like to state that I am NOT the anonymous Abigail that Karen mentions who wrote on Hillary’s blog. I always give my blog(s)…or Hillary knows who I am by my email. I am very supportive of Hillary and of what she is trying to do!!
Just sayin’!
Karen…interesting that you should bring up the idea of modest dress being necessary to keep our husbands hearts at home. I am not sure if she it talking about immodest dress in wives or in others, but I know of Christian women who dress “immodestly” because they feel they must in order to keep their husband’s eyes on them alone. How very sad.
Comment:
“If she wanted to help reconcile these girls and families, she just failed. In one fell swoop, she has alienated every girl who has left a patriarchal home. They will never trust her or go to her for advice. They will only recoil from her words and her obvious heart toward them as “rebellious sinners”. Her blog is only days old but it has already failed the purpose for which she claims it was created. If anything, it will probably drive more girls into the grace and love of QD, and the heart of goodness and truth in Hillary’s ministry.”
Darcy, this is EXACTLY right! It is just so heartbreaking to see the attitude that is coming through that entire blog. Lewis summed it up correctly when he wrote about doctrine over person” as what they have done. BUT, it is not surprising. When have we ever seen the things approached in any different way?
Praying today for the young women who are being further hurt and damaged by this latest blog.
Anthea,thank your for those kind words.
In speaking of the unnatural and inorganic nature of all of this, I keep thinking about how personally damaging this movement is to the moms. Even though they may be perpetrators, they know not what they do. It is all so against the way God has designed us as mothers and those who nurture. It is part of who we are as moms to desire growth in our children, to help them progress through all the stages of life, to see them mature in the Lord and using their gifts. A mother has some real personal and unresolved issues to want her daughters to be EXACTLY like them. I love it so much that I have such an amazing group of children,each who are wired so very differently than each other and in some ways from their mom and dad. It is awesome to watch and very convicting, too. I can’t imagine the guilt that would eventually hit once you realized what you were doing.
I’ve had this nagging question on my mind for two days, but I haven’t had time to dig in and study/write out my thoughts yet. Probably won’t have time for a few more days, unfortunately. I’ve been specifically considering the “Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death” speech of Patrick Henry. (go here for background and full text: http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/henry.htm) But….have any of you thought about the irony of how the patriarchy world almost worships the founding fathers of this country and yet seeks to keep young women under the same kind of control that our founders sought to cast off? By patriarchal definition, weren’t our founders nothing more than rebels of the authority that was over them? Shouldn’t they have just submitted themselves, even if the Crown was wrong? After all, isn’t that what a godly daughter is supposed to do – submit to whatever her parents decide is right for her?
So how is it our founders are heralded as heroes, but daughters of patriarchy are called rebellious, bitter, deceived. Oh right, I forgot…the founders were MEN who were called to take dominion over the evil British empire. We’re just mindless, easily deceived, ungrateful girls who are tired of doing chores.
There’s a lot more I’d like to say on this, but I want to think about it some more. In the meantime, thought I’d post here to see what thoughts you all have on it.
Re: Jeanette and the Founding Fathers~
That’s the sort of realization that pops up in peoples’ heads; until they are so completely indoctrinated that they can dismiss it without a second thought. I’m thinking that patriocentrists would easily disregard that question thus: the founding fathers were MEN, who were ‘obeying God rather than men’ [something patriocentrists are very keen to explain: any hint that the 1776 patriots might have merely been rebels must be denied at all costs].
On the other hand, as you said, it is WOMEN who are now appearing to rebel against authority, and we all know that the Bible speaks far more clearly about women submitting to men.
I’ve sometimes wondered myself how Vision Forum and the like can so readily espouse Abigail Adams, for instance, with her widely publicized call to ‘remember the ladies’. No doubt that quote is just one more symptom of how our culture has become indoctrinated with feminist propaganda.
[Ever notice how if you hang around with these people long enough, speaking the lingo becomes second nature? It's all too easy for me to slip from sarcasm into really believing these things again.]
a quote from Stacy McDonald’s book review of Quivering Daughters:
“For the sake of Christ, we Christians are to be content with weaknesses, hardships, persecutions, and calamities, let alone a scarcity of compliments in the middle of the night. Disappointment is real, but it really calls for a holy response. When we bring forth sin instead, we must repent, for we are the people (Acts 16:25) who are called to sing hymns in prisons!”
This paragraph is Stacy’s own gauntlet. She is expounding, we Christians, yet, her first marriage is exactly this. Tough, hard, disappointment at every turn. And yet she chose not to stay & live up to her own words/standards. Talk is always cheap. I have known of a woman who stayed with an unbelieving spouse & he did require her to go to work–they have 4 kids–she did go to work & is thriving at accomplishing–work outside the home, inspite of him. Their marriage is no bed or roses, but she has definitely suffered greatly for over 2 decades.
In fairness Hillary’s book is very well written & only God & Hillary know the embellishments that are in print. However, like the Reformers http://www.reformation.org/girolamo-savonarola.html, she needed to be extreme & make her point to wake up those slumbering. And we should expect nothing less than being burned by those she is speaking out against.
I am teaching my kids about the Reformation by reading the book”Reformation Heroes”(by Diana Kleyn) Let us be reminded of Eccl. “there is nothing new under the sun.”
“As iron sharpens iron” May we all Grow in Grace & Knowledge of Jesus Christ
Jeannette, you bring up an interesting point. Actually, I have heard some patriocentrists say that the Americans were in rebellion to England and should never have drafted the Declaration. Seriously, I have heard that. But these same people wholeheartedly support South Carolina firing on Ft. Sumter. Go figure.
Joella, you make such a good point. Central to Stacy’s discussion of her own divorce and remarriage and that God wants us to be happy and free from abuse. Interesting insight. Again, I believe it all goes back to their theology and views of parents in the family and their twisted perception of the covenant.
Did it strike anyone else as strange that she asked about being under church discipline (#19)? She asked it right after asking about what kind of church you are currently attending so I first thought that she was asking about being under discipline at the current church (as in, the person must be a habitual problem no matter where she goes). Then I wondered if she was thinking about being under discipline at the church of origin because the daughter left.
I don’t know. The question just struck me as odd.
I wondered that, too, Sallie. It did seem like an odd question about church discipline.
She would not want me answering her survey. Ironically, she’s not questioning wives that have been, and are no longer, in these types of churches.
boy, oh, boy, can I explain this one!
The philosophy of this group when it comes to church discipline is interesting and is roughly based on Jay Adams’ approach. To begin with, church discipline can be administered for disagreeing with the elders or even questioning them in some situations. There is no “balance of powers” so to speak as there might be in a church that has both elder rule and congregational decision-making. Within this sort of church authority structure, elders are not obligated to explain any decisions they make and any sort of challenge can be deemed “contumacy” which is defined as “obstinate, rebelliousness and insubordination; resistance to authority.” In a civil court, someone can be charged with contumacy for not appearing before a court. Just the use of this word in church discipline situations shows you how they see congregants…they are to be judged by elders rather than encouraged, served, or nurtured.
Understanding their doctrinal views of church discipline is absolutely central to understanding Stacy’s whole appeal to “reconciliation” with parents and asking about “church discipline” would be central to her evaluation of a quivering daughter’s situation.
Here is how it is usually played out. Someone has a differing opinion than a church elder. That person is confronted and challenged with Scripture that has been twisted to mean what they want it to mean. (Numbers 30, for example, “proves” that daughters are to stay at home until given in marriage.) They are asked to meet with the elders and told that they are to comply and if they don’t they will be excommunicated (not allowed communion and shunning from the congregation.) The offender is considered to be unregenerate because the elders “hold the keys to the kingdom” meaning they can withhold your salvation. It doesn’t matter that you are a professing Christian because a professing Christian, in their eyes, would obey their church elders (or parents) no matter what.
Here is where it gets really nasty. The offender then goes to another church. The elders of the first church find out where that is and the new pastor is called and warned that the offender has been excommunicated. Sometimes the good old boys club kicks into gear and from “one pastor to another” stuff is shared. And in the conversation, the second pastor is “warned” that if he doesn’t uphold the “excommunication” from the first group of elders, his church will be publicly declared a “false church.” What’s a guy to do? So the offender then moves on to another church and the whole thing is repeated. Eventually many of these people who dared challenge false teaching are left without a place to go to church and they just don’t go.
I have seen this play out just this way many times. I once watched a group of elders make the “false church” threat to a number of churches where different members had retreated and it was effective with every single pastor. I have seen the threats on blogs like the Bayly brothers’ Out of Our Minds where they challenge any woman who makes comments contrary to their views be asked for the names of their husbands and elders so they can be straightened out. I have had an elder tell me point blank that I couldn’t possibly be saved because I disagreed with his interpretations of Scripture. Even when we chose to attend another church, we were “defacto excommunicated” in other words, pronounced unsaved to an entire congregation during worship even though there had been no church trial, as required by the church constitution and denomination. And the real kicker was that when my husband challenged their false teachings at the presbytery level, the pastors who listened to the sermons and looked at our paperwork agreed with us! But they were too weak to follow through and demand that action be taken. These out of control elders were given a slap on the wrist and a written warning with no real action behind it! (Thankfully we kept a paper trail for future church situations!)
I have also experienced pastors contacting other churches to prevent us from finding a church home. And when all this doesn’t work, it is OK for a law suit to be filed because, after all, the offender is now no longer a Christian because their elders have shaken their kingdom keys in your direction. I know it sounds like a tale and a half but I have a 38 page lawsuit document to prove the lengths someone will go to to prevent you from challenging them!!!
I know that many young women have been excommunicated from their churches and their families to the point where they feel the need to go into hiding just so they can feel safe. So, church discipline according to their perspective of it is central to establishing order in the congregation. After all, those offenders are set up as an example for the other quivering daughters so they won’t even think of disobeying their elders or fathers. None of this is about holiness and being in relationship with the Lord Jesus. It is all about control and power and, in some cases, money in the bank.
Very true! And it’s amazing that while the family thinks they’ve found safe shelter from the first church, it’s only a matter of time till they found out they’ve been blacklisted from the beginning in the new church. Many times, the only thing to do is to convert to a church that doesn’t recognise or care about the previous churches.
I should add…that wasn’t the purpose of our conversion, it just happened to be a side benefit of
Wow! I am saddened to hear that stuff like this really happens. I am sure that our heavenly Abba is very saddened over this.
Karen…In my opinion, that deserves a post all it’s own. Very enlightening.
A new look at this gives me another thought: Interesting how they view a young adult living anywhere but home as a “problem.” Of course, I know the Patriarchy well and know to them it’s so radical as to not even be on the possibilities radar. Also love the question about who was the stronger leader in the home–Mom or Dad. I see so many hidden agendas here [again no surprise given who is writing it!] Fascinating…..And to think, to most of America these people are as rare or unknown as Muggles/Wizards are to each other in Harry Potter!
The problem, imo, is that people keep calling out words and actions as sin. Keep pointing at sin in each other and it will never stop. I am reminded of the simple truth shared by Pollyanna… “When you look for the bad in people, you are sure to find it.” If we keep looking at the Steadfast or Quivering blogs with our attempt to point out sin in each we play right into the legalism trap cycle again and again. With the utmost respect for all in both sides of this debate, the rabbit hole gets darker and darker and deeper and deeper and you’ll never find grace in the rabbit hole like that. We can be plunging deeper and deeper into it while debating with one another on our way down, or we can stop and just claim the grace that has been given to us and He will lift us all out of that hole. The Law will always war with the Spirit. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty. But I don’t find much Liberty in casting stones in either direction. Grace drops the stones.
Pointing out ‘sin’ has never set people free. Only the offer of grace sets people free. There are valuable benefits to having a family with boundaries and insightful benefits to having a family free from walls as large as the Wall of China. It’s the balance that only Christ can give us.
The Berlin wall came down, but the story of it will always be a part of our world’s history. Spiritual Abuse is real and we can’t hide it. Christianity has a form of mind control and fear mongering that cripples the Body of Christ with strongholds that will stay bound around the minds and hearts of believers and it does so with the pointing of fingers. Pointing fingers can be the modern day equal to the stones the Pharisees used to kill each other with. And we ‘kill’ each other with our words, and those ‘stones’ are loaded into the catapult and shot forth with hate. In Christianity’s attempt to ‘hate’ sin they have lost their way in figuring out how to love the sinner. All they want to do is shout about the sinner, of which we all have been known to ‘say’ we are. So how can sin cast out sin? It can’t. Then why do we try to? It’s a worthless attempt at bringing each other into what we each think is the ‘right way to be a Christian’. Grace sees into the hearts of all these blog and book authors and says, “I love you, because of who I AM, not because of who you try to be.” Father says to His children, “Please stop squabbling, my Son already covered your sin and the sin of the other bloggers. Why do you keep pointing out what is covered?”
Hi Sisterlisa,
I’m trying to understand your comment in context. I just skimmed the comments and I didn’t see the word sin used much, if at all. Do you think it is wrong for Christians to warn others of false teachings that will lead people astray and cause them spiritual harm? Do you see that as different from pointing out sin or the same?
Thanks!
I’m glad you asked me, Sallie. ‘Teachings’ are called false in varying perspectives, so I won’t even get into that part of it, but I DO adamantly stand up to combat abuse of any kind. I have seen spiritual abuse in just about every denomination out there. I read Hillary’s book and support it 100%. I’m just becoming weary of the constant name battle with that other blog and the podcasts I have heard..the issue of spiritual abuse is sensitive enough as it is. It’s a fine line between calling out a person or denomination and a philosophy that wounds others. I have done both and have learned a great deal from my ‘speaking up’. I found that exposing a mentality of abusive characteristics can set so many more people free than by pointing out the names of people. The reason why is because the characteristics of abuse happens everywhere.
When I was coming out of the legalism I was drowning under, all I could find were various websites that outright named ‘movements’ and what I was finding is that the same characteristics were involved in all of them. Which actually gave me that ‘aha moment’ that it wasn’t about the denominations as much as it was a mentality that has been passed down through the ages. I traced these tactics back as far as I could go and what God revealed to me was astonishing.(but I won’t get into that this time)
If we aren’t careful and fully relying on Him and His discernment, we are at risk for swinging the pendulum back into more wars and debates, becoming fully engrossed in legalism all over again. Combating legalism is a losing battle if we fight legalism with the OT Law. It’s like ‘satan casting out satan’. Yes, expose narcissistic dominating dictatorships that put people into bondage, but reveal the mentality of it on it’s own. The Holy Spirit does the rest in the hearts of those who are reading. When no name calling is happening, just exposing the mentality, then they can’t really point back without looking totally foolish.
I wrote a series on persecution. I never called out names or organizations. Then someone in my town happened upon my blog and began telling many people that I was blogging about her and her organization. *I never said her name* only the characteristics I was finding on all those websites I read. It was her own conscience that revealed to her what she ‘saw’ on my blog. My husband came to me and asked about it, since it was affecting his job. I explained that my blog posts were describing behavior that happens all over the world. I suggested that he ask this woman to print out my blog posts and highlight everything she thinks is about her and her organization. If she had done it, she would have been admitting her own guilt. For my own sanity I steer clear of pointing out people, but instead deal with the mentality of it all.
I have gasped at a lot of what I read on the ‘steadfast’ blog. I was floored actually. We are all brethren (and sisters) regardless of what we disagree with in regards to denominational interpretations of the Bible. But in fighting a spiritual battle we need to aim in the spiritual realm, not the physical. Pulling down strongholds is tricky warfare. Strongholds are everywhere and have blinded the eyes of many Believers. Yet God in His sovereignty has allowed that to be so. For each of us there is a certain amount of blindness, those pesky motes seem to be sticking out of all our eyes. But lets help graciously pull out the motes, rather than attacking the victims who have them inflicting their vision. We’re all victims in one degree or another.
The stories in Hillary’s book moved me to deep sobs…I was one of those mothers. Not specifically as a quiverful type, (I only have 4 kids) but the mentality was one I embraced for many years, thinking I was ‘right’…and I was only right in my own eyes…and everyone else who had the same beams protruding out of our eye-sockets. I am thankful to have been freed. I am thankful for Hillary’s book.
And yet in her book she does not do what I saw on the ‘steadfast’ blog. I have seen people build blogs just to target other bloggers before and it only HURTS the blogosphere as a whole. Sometimes it looks like a bunch of Pharisees throwing stones at each..whoever is left standing at the end wins? While the entire army of believers are laying ‘dead’ and ‘bloody’ in the streets? Yes, sadly that is what Christianity is becoming. But it CAN change..and can only be done with grace. We may not all see eye to eye…many can’t see at all because the motes are so huge, but we are all children of God on our own journey with Father.
Pulling down strongholds is part of being His follower, but not at the expense of wounding more people. If someone isn’t ready to have their mote pulled, leave it there. If someone is pulling down strongholds with grace and others don’t like that, so be it. But lets not get pulled into their tactics. imo…naming out these ladies, tracking down their blog posts, copying and pasting it in blogs, sitting on the edge of our computer chairs waiting for the next cat fight, is no better than that blog is. “Where there is no wood, the fire ceaseth.” “A soft answer turns away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger.” “pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.” Pride will fall..it is destined too. But in God’s way, not our own.
Has anyone seen Merlin? At the end how did Queen Mab finally get defeated? They simply turned their backs and said, “We don’t believe in you anymore, Mab” and they walked away. They took her ‘wood’ and her ‘fire’ ceased..she disappeared. Oh ya she screamed a fit before she withered away to dust…but she did stop. A fool can be seen without us pointing it out. By simply walking in grace. Continue with the ministry of Quivering Daughters. And I think every homeschool family and father led family ought to stand up about spiritual abuse and speak up like Hillary did. Trying to cover it up and make excuses for it only makes one look guilty. ‘Christians’ seem to make ‘pouring salt in wounds’ a sport.
Lisa, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and concerns.
It is interesting that you brought up the concept of spiritual warfare because the Lord has been impressing on me that aspect of what we do as homeschooling moms so much within the past few months. I am in the midst of preparing podcasts on this subject that I will share, Lord-willing, in a few weeks. You are absolutely correct that we must keep the truth in mind that we are in a spiritual battle with the enemy who absolutely does not want the Gospel to advance!
I think I understand what you are saying about dwelling on the wrong aspects of any movement and not naming names. In some instances I think it is absolutely the correct way to approach a situation. But other times I think it is necessary to name names and to leave people with no doubts as to who actually teaches what. As often as I can I will share quotes and give credit to the author as one would do in writing a research paper. Sadly, as you well know, many people who are entrapped in cults or cultic environments are unable to discern what teachers are saying. While I agree that the Holy Spirit is the one who opens eyes, I believe He often uses teachings placed context of the big picture in order for followers to have discernment. This has been confirmed over and over again as I hear from those who have been helped by my willingness to name names even if I often have to do so alone. Within the homeschooling community there are few people who have been willing to hold each other accountable and I believe there are many who are going to have to answer to the Lord one day for acting as though some of the patriocentric teachings are just another choice rather than the spiritual abuse that they are and that they represent. Silence and hesitation to be forthright and point out specific teachings by quoting them are damaging many families and, worst of all, turning little ones away from a true and genuine relationship with the Lord.
I do believe, however, that we need to follow the example set by Jesus. He was gentle though forthright with those who were hurting but he reserved his harshest criticism for the Pharisees who placed unnecessary burdens on the backs of others. Where the Pharisees saved believers? We know they were religious people but I am not sure where each of them individually stood before the Lord in the end. I think the same is true of the patriocentrists. And I continually pray for their repentance and that the Lord would melt their hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh so they would be able to love as Jesus loves.
I welcome your input any time, by the way!
Thank you for welcoming me in your blog community, Karen. I did read this morning..the article you wrote about Matthew 18 and I agree with that, so I understand more now why you are handling this the way that you are.
I do agree that there are people like the Pharisees who projected themselves as people of faith, but their hearts didn’t really belong to the Spirit…they were acting in the flesh through legalism. That fruit of the knowledge of good and evil still has it effects on those who continue to feast thereon. They have their ‘knowledge’ of their religious forefather’s interpretations of the Bible and that makes them think they are ‘good’ and anyone who disagrees is ‘evil’.
I appreciate that this Stacy is being exposed. She has a way of twisting the word of God. I pray that she does not draw people away for God because baby christians will not hear the truth. Satan has a way of coming like a light but he is a liar who wants to kill, steal and destroy. Pray for this woman so God may show her His truth and Life and heal her in Jesus name. Amen!!!!
Georgia, thanks for your comments.
http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/2011/08/so-this-is-love/#comments
If you can get into this thread here is a dialog between me and Stacy dicussing the Martha and Mary behavior.